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Author Topic:   GWB, the Nazis, the Commies, and Us.
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 956 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 1 of 17 (453366)
02-01-2008 11:39 PM


From Message 34 of our current political thread.

Chi writes:

It will be interesting whether a US attack on Iran will the the "invasion of Poland" that will lead the world to finally say that enough is enough.

Thank you, Chi.

Exactly the point I was going to make.

I recently had the chance to see Naomi Wolf's talk re: her book The End of America.

Here's Naomi's take on Germany in the early 30s and legal pressures on a democracy aka how despots crack down:

Every would-be dictator, whether on the left or the right, does the same 9 things. There is a blue print for crushing a democracy.

Each of these steps is underway in the United States today courtesy of G. W. Bush.

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external threat.

2. Create a secret prison system where torture takes place that is outside the rule of law.

3. Create a paramilitary force.

4. Create a surveillance apparatus aimed at ordinary citizens.

5. Target key individuals for punishment as a result of this surveillance.

6. Arbitrarily detain and release citizens.

7. Restrict the press.

8. Re-cast criticism as treason.

9. Subvert the rule of law.

The same is true of Italy (pre-Mussolini), Russia (pre-Stalin), Czechlovakia (pre-Ceausescu), Chile (pre-Pinochet).

GWB has only #9 left.

GWB is a threat to our national security.

What say you, EvC?

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by anglagard, posted 02-02-2008 2:37 AM molbiogirl has responded
 Message 5 by Legend, posted 02-02-2008 7:14 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Shield, posted 02-02-2008 9:14 AM molbiogirl has responded
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 2 of 17 (453383)
02-02-2008 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
02-01-2008 11:39 PM


Unfortunately Not Much New Here
One could easily argue that all of these conditions have existed in US history to some extent in the South prior to the Civil War and during Reconstruction, and nationwide during the red scare of the early 1920s and 1950s.

Also, slight correction, CeauÅŸescu was Romanian, not Czechoslovakian.

All the same I find recent events concerning the child-emperor and his lackeys quite disturbing, as everyone who supports the US Constitution should.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty--power is ever stealing from the many to the few."

Wendell Phillips
US abolitionist (1811 - 1884)

-


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 956 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 3 of 17 (453408)
02-02-2008 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by anglagard
02-02-2008 2:37 AM


Also, slight correction, CeauÅŸescu was Romanian, not Czechoslovakian.

That's what I get for trying to remember the country instead of looking it up.

One could easily argue that all of these conditions have existed in US history to some extent in the South prior to the Civil War and during Reconstruction, and nationwide during the red scare of the early 1920s and 1950s.

Here's my tally.

South: 4/9
1920s/30s/50s: 6/9
GWB: 8/9

The man's hitting on all cylinders.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by anglagard, posted 02-02-2008 5:00 AM molbiogirl has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 4 of 17 (453412)
02-02-2008 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by molbiogirl
02-02-2008 4:29 AM


molbiogirl writes:

Here's my tally.

South: 4/9
1920s/30s/50s: 6/9
GWB: 8/9

IMO your tally, particularly regarding the South is way too low.

See American Mobbing by David Grimstead. The reviews do not give it justice as to pre-Civil War suppression of the Bill of Rights in the South. Essentially the penalty for criticizing slavery was death.

As to Reconstruction or even later, one must consider the tolerance and often even government support of such internal terrorist organizations as the KKK, the Mob, or hired strike-breaking goons. The references are beyond numerous.

Just arguing for perspective. American history is not all sweetness and light by any means, including presumed rule by law.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by molbiogirl, posted 02-02-2008 4:29 AM molbiogirl has responded

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Legend
Member (Idle past 3321 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 5 of 17 (453423)
02-02-2008 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
02-01-2008 11:39 PM


1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external threat.

2. Create a secret prison system where torture takes place that is outside the rule of law.

3. Create a paramilitary force.

4. Create a surveillance apparatus aimed at ordinary citizens.

5. Target key individuals for punishment as a result of this surveillance.

6. Arbitrarily detain and release citizens.

7. Restrict the press.

8. Re-cast criticism as treason.

9. Subvert the rule of law.

The same is true of Italy (pre-Mussolini), Russia (pre-Stalin), Czechlovakia (pre-Ceausescu), Chile (pre-Pinochet).

may I also add Great Britain (1997-present) to the list. In particular, points 1,4,5,6,8 are very obvious, while 7 is not just limited to the press but to any free speech. 9 is more of a case of creating new generic, blanket-coverage laws that can be interpreted in any which way to suit current political climate.

It's not just the US that's slowly crumbling under neo-fascism, but all US satellite nations too.


"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13178
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 17 (453450)
02-02-2008 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Legend
02-02-2008 7:14 AM


I wouldnt say crumbling just yet
Legend writes:

It's not just the US that's slowly crumbling under neo-fascism, but all US satellite nations too.

I would'nt say that we are crumbling just yet. Keep in mind, however, that Bush attempted to rig the elections last time around. It will be interesting if any imminent threat similar to 9-11 manifests itself before Bush steps out of power.

That would certainly give rise to the legitimate questions of:

  • who manufactured the threat? (Hitler was good at that!)
  • Would the people stand for another rigged election?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Legend, posted 02-02-2008 7:14 AM Legend has not yet responded

      
    Shield
    Member (Idle past 1177 days)
    Posts: 482
    Joined: 01-29-2008


    Message 7 of 17 (453456)
    02-02-2008 9:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
    02-01-2008 11:39 PM


    1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external threat.

    I'll agree that this is happening


    2. Create a secret prison system where torture takes place that is outside the rule of law.

    The CIA's black prisons has not been for U.S citizens but only for "terroists" capturede abroad. Further more, these prisons are not located within the USA.


    3. Create a paramilitary force.

    What paramilitary forces do the US have within its own borders?


    4. Create a surveillance apparatus aimed at ordinary citizens.

    Well this is happening. In the US as well as europe and many other countries.


    5. Target key individuals for punishment as a result of this surveillance.

    I cant find any instance of this happening. But ofcourse... they would cover it up.


    6. Arbitrarily detain and release citizens.

    Again, i cant find any instance of this happening


    7. Restrict the press.

    I cant say to what degree the press is actually beeing restricted.
    They do plant stories in the news though. See 1.


    8. Re-cast criticism as treason.

    Somewhat happening


    9. Subvert the rule of law.

    Hasent happened (yet)

    Though it may seem that the US does fulfill a couple of points on the list, i dont think the USA heading towards true facism any time soon.


    The same is true of Italy (pre-Mussolini), Russia (pre-Stalin), Czechlovakia (pre-Ceausescu), Chile (pre-Pinochet).

    In all these instances, there actually was secret police heading down citizens of the country, there was 'real' propaganda and so forth.

    What im trying to say is that the 9 points were practiced to the extreme, and that really isent happening in the US.

    They do alot of sh*t though.

    Edited by rbp, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by molbiogirl, posted 02-01-2008 11:39 PM molbiogirl has responded

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    molbiogirl
    Member (Idle past 956 days)
    Posts: 1909
    From: MO
    Joined: 06-06-2007


    Message 8 of 17 (453510)
    02-02-2008 2:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by anglagard
    02-02-2008 5:00 AM


    As to Reconstruction or even later, one must consider the tolerance and often even government support of such internal terrorist organizations as the KKK, the Mob, or hired strike-breaking goons

    But they weren't created by the federal government.

    They may have been ignored or even encouraged, but that's different.

    Just arguing for perspective. American history is not all sweetness and light by any means, including presumed rule by law.

    I agree.


    This message is a reply to:
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    molbiogirl
    Member (Idle past 956 days)
    Posts: 1909
    From: MO
    Joined: 06-06-2007


    Message 9 of 17 (453517)
    02-02-2008 3:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Shield
    02-02-2008 9:14 AM


    The CIA's black prisons has not been for U.S citizens but only for "terroists" capturede abroad. Further more, these prisons are not located within the USA.

    Two words. Jose Padilla.

    What paramilitary forces do the US have within its own borders?

    Two words. Hurricane Katrina.

    Blackwater was immediately dispatched to New Orleans.

    One of GWB's signing statements says that he and he alone has the authority to dispatch the paramilitary (Blackwater, Sovereign Deed, etc.) in cases of "national emergency". And guess who gets to decide what constitutes a "national emergency"?

    I cant find any instance of this happening. But ofcourse... they would cover it up.

    Naomi Wolf is on the terrorist watch list. (Her boarding pass is always marked "SSSS" aka high terrorist risk.) Now why would that be?

    Richard Murphy (constitutional authority/Princeton scholar), Medea Benjamin/Jodie Evans/etc. (leaders of anti-war group Code Pink), the staff of War Times (anti-war newspaper), ACLU staffers, Greenpeace leaders, are also on the terrorist watch list.

    And who knows who else.

    I'll tell you this much.

    I posted an anti-Bush article (from the New Yorker) on a local bulletin board back in 2003.

    The next day the FBI showed up at my house. I was interrogated for nearly an hour until I demanded that they leave.

    I cant say to what degree the press is actually beeing restricted.
    They do plant stories in the news though. See 1.

    Journalists have been detained in Iraq.

    Reuters soundman Waleed Khaled was killed in Baghdad, apparently by US troops, and cameraman Haider Kadhem, who was wounded in the same incident, has been held ever since by the US military for questioning. Reuters has demanded his immediate release. Iraqi police said US troops fired into the car carrying the Reuters team.

    Lieutenant Colonel Rudisill said he was aware of five journalists for major news media in detention, including Mr Mashhadani and another freelance cameraman who has worked for Reuters, as well as a cameraman for the US television network CBS. Journalists for other major international organizations have recently been released without charge after many months in custody.

    Journalists faced 'record censorship' in 2003

    Forty-two journalists were killed around the world during 2003 and more than 750 were arrested for carrying out their profession, according to the annual report from the rights group Reporters Without Borders (RSF).

    Journalists are being threatened.

    "The Pentagon has threatened to fire on the satellite uplink positions of independent journalists in Iraq, according to veteran BBC war correspondent, Kate Adie.

    http://www.dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/55345

    Journalists are being targeted.

    Reporters Without Borders accuses US military of deliberately firing at journalists

    Reporters Without Borders called today on US defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld to provide evidence that the offices of the pan-Arab TV station Al-Jazeera and the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad were not deliberately fired at by US forces earlier in the day in attacks that killed three journalists.

    "We are appalled at what happened because it was known that both places contained journalists," said the organisation’s secretary-general Robert Ménard. "Film shot by the French TV station France 3 and descriptions by journalists show the neighbourhood was very quiet at that hour and that the US tank crew took their time, waiting for a couple of minutes and adjusting its gun before opening fire."

    http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=5975

    In all these instances, there actually was secret police heading down citizens of the country, there was 'real' propaganda and so forth.

    Wrong.

    Bush Administration creates "Secret State Police"

    The Bush Administration is to set up a "domestic spy service", pursuant to the recommendations of a Commission led by US Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman and former Senator Charles S. Robb of Virginia, the so-called Silberman-Rob Commission.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=601

    (It) was described as as a necessary step in "protecting the American public".

    "It pulls together the Counterintelligence Division, the Counterterrorism Division, and the Directorate of Intelligence, enabling it to act together to develop intelligence and then to act on that intelligence, in consultation with not only Department of Justice but also the Director of National Intelligence (DNI). We look forward to working with the DNI over the next 60 days to put in place additional steps that may be required to give full implementation to the development of this National Security Service." (http://www.fbi.gov/page2/june05/nss062905.htm)

    The new department will be able to "spy on people in America suspected of terrorism or having critical intelligence information, even if they are not suspected of committing a crime." (NBC Tonight, 29 June 2005).

    rbp writes:

    What im trying to say is that the 9 points were practiced to the extreme, and that really isent happening in the US.

    I disagree.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Shield, posted 02-02-2008 9:14 AM Shield has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by Shield, posted 02-02-2008 3:59 PM molbiogirl has responded

      
    Shield
    Member (Idle past 1177 days)
    Posts: 482
    Joined: 01-29-2008


    Message 10 of 17 (453519)
    02-02-2008 3:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by molbiogirl
    02-02-2008 3:21 PM



    Two words. Jose Padilla.

    I dont think thats enough to conclude that the CIA prison are for US citizens.. Just the fact that he traveled through the middle east and was captured on his way back to the US makes a huge difference.. No, it dosent make him guilty of anything, but it makes the case for this not beeing some random capture for political reasons.


    Two words. Hurricane Katrina.

    Blackwater was immediately dispatched to New Orleans.

    One of GWB's signing statements says that he and he alone has the authority to dispatch the paramilitary (Blackwater, Sovereign Deed, etc.) in cases of "national emergency". And guess who gets to decide what constitutes a "national emergency"?

    I would like to see a source on the GWB quote. Just for context and so forth.

    About blackwater and paramilitary forces, i guess ill have to give you that one.

    Except maybe we could call them mercenaries, but that wouldn't really make any difference.


    Naomi Wolf is on the terrorist watch list. (Her boarding pass is always marked "SSSS" aka high terrorist risk.) Now why would that be?

    And who knows who else.

    I would like to see a proper source on that.
    Also, what onsequence it actually has for the people with marked passports.


    I posted an anti-Bush article (from the New Yorker) on a local bulletin board back in 2003.

    The next day the FBI showed up at my house. I was interrogated for nearly an hour until I demanded that they leave.

    Do tell the story.


    Journalists have been detained in Iraq.

    [qs]
    Journalists are being targeted.
    /qs

    Journalists are being threatened.

    Some of those stories are some heavy stuff, but the press is NOT beeing regulated like it was the case with Hitler, Mussolini, Kim Jon Il and those other real tyrant regimes.


    Wrong.

    Wrong that it happened in the instances you mentioned? Or wrong that it does happen in the US?

    I havent really been able to find much information on this Secret Police. Please post links if you have.

    Can you mention anything performed by this secret police?

    Edited by rbp, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by molbiogirl, posted 02-02-2008 3:21 PM molbiogirl has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by molbiogirl, posted 02-02-2008 4:18 PM Shield has acknowledged this reply

      
    molbiogirl
    Member (Idle past 956 days)
    Posts: 1909
    From: MO
    Joined: 06-06-2007


    Message 11 of 17 (453521)
    02-02-2008 4:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Shield
    02-02-2008 3:59 PM


    I dont think thats enough to conclude that the CIA prison are for US citizens.

    Padilla is a U.S. citizen. He was arrested in the U.S. He was held incommunicado for 3 years.

    The Bush administration has openly touted a series of extreme legal theories to justify holding suspects without trial or access to a lawyer. Even US citizens arrested in the United States can be held indefinitely as “enemy combatants.”

    http://www.harvardir.org/articles/1562/

    I would like to see a source on the GWB quote. Just for context and so forth.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061004-10.html

    I would like to see a proper source on that.

    Naomi Wolf herself.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

    At 30:12.

    Also, what onsequence it actually has for the people with marked passports.

    Passports aren't marked!

    You really don't know much about the Patriot Act, do you?

    Some of those stories are some heavy stuff, but the press is NOT beeing regulated like it was the case with Hitler, Mussolini, Kim Jon Il and those other real tyrant regimes.

    We still enjoy the rule of law. For now. However, it is clear from history that erosion of a democracy proceeds via tipping points. Which means a gradual restrictions of civil liberties and civil rights ... then the situation hits a sweet spot ... and BOOM. You're done. You're toast.

    No more rights. No more liberties.

    I havent really been able to find much information on this Secret Police. Please post links if you have.

    Ferchrissake.

    Message 9.

    Bush Administration creates "Secret State Police"

    The Bush Administration is to set up a "domestic spy service", pursuant to the recommendations of a Commission led by US Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman and former Senator Charles S. Robb of Virginia, the so-called Silberman-Rob Commission.

    LOOK RIGHT HERE.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=601

    (It) was described as as a necessary step in "protecting the American public".

    "It pulls together the Counterintelligence Division, the Counterterrorism Division, and the Directorate of Intelligence, enabling it to act together to develop intelligence and then to act on that intelligence, in consultation with not only Department of Justice but also the Director of National Intelligence (DNI). We look forward to working with the DNI over the next 60 days to put in place additional steps that may be required to give full implementation to the development of this National Security Service."

    LOOK RIGHT HERE.

    (http://www.fbi.gov/page2/june05/nss062905.htm)

    The new department will be able to "spy on people in America suspected of terrorism or having critical intelligence information, even if they are not suspected of committing a crime."

    LOOK RIGHT HERE.

    NBC Tonight, 29 June 2005


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Shield, posted 02-02-2008 3:59 PM Shield has acknowledged this reply

      
    obvious Child
    Member (Idle past 2430 days)
    Posts: 661
    Joined: 08-17-2006


    Message 12 of 17 (453539)
    02-02-2008 6:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
    02-01-2008 11:39 PM


    But isn't that list flawed in the aspect that an large amount of the population is anti-Bush and the press is keeping the population at least somewhat informed about his behavior. Furthermore, for an dictatorship to occur, it would need the help of the army. That I find to be extremely unlikely. The Russians had an hard time shooting their people, what makes you think that the US military would do what the Commies couldn't?

    Plus many people have stopped listening to anything that comes out of that man's mouth an long time ago.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by molbiogirl, posted 02-01-2008 11:39 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Iname
    Junior Member (Idle past 2199 days)
    Posts: 28
    Joined: 06-08-2006


    Message 13 of 17 (453766)
    02-04-2008 12:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by obvious Child
    02-02-2008 6:50 PM


    quote:

    But isn't that list flawed in the aspect that an large amount of the population is anti-Bush and the press is keeping the population at least somewhat informed about his behavior.....

    ...Plus many people have stopped listening to anything that comes out of that man's mouth an long time ago.


    Bush isn't the problem (well he is, but not in that way), he's merely the opening act. While relatively few people support him anymore, a quick look through any right-wing conservative message board or blog will reveal that support for such things as the Patriot Act, as well as the secret prisons and warrantless wiretapping are still disturbingly widespread.

    So there's no way Bush will be the next Hitler, in fact we may not even see him/her for decades if at all. But what Bush has done is greased up the process. So when America forgets about Bush's horrible presidency and elects another neocon he/she/it (most likely the latter ;) ) can take what Bush did a little farther. They'll subvert more checks and balances, institute even more easily abused laws, and make it far easier for the next one to take over. Continue this as many times as necessary and you have a fascist dictatorship ruling over a population completely acclimated to tyranny.

    God help us if the neocons find someone as charismatic and well spoken as Obama.


    This message is a reply to:
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    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1606 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 14 of 17 (453769)
    02-04-2008 1:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by obvious Child
    02-02-2008 6:50 PM


    obvious Child writes:

    The Russians had an hard time shooting their people, what makes you think that the US military would do what the Commies couldn't?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

    This message is a reply to:
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    Lithodid-Man
    Member (Idle past 1246 days)
    Posts: 504
    From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
    Joined: 03-22-2004


    Message 15 of 17 (453771)
    02-04-2008 3:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
    02-01-2008 11:39 PM


    A great take
    Hi Molbiogirl,

    I found this to be an interesting take on your concept. Admittedly by a leftist group. :)

    http://www.bushflash.com/14.html


    Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
    Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
    Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
    Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

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