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Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 403 (601713)
01-23-2011 1:24 PM


Bump For Abortion Issues
This thread appears to be quite appropriate for those who wish to address the abortion issues so as not to derail other threads.

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-23-2011 1:39 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2011 1:59 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 98 by subbie, posted 01-23-2011 5:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 01-23-2011 6:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 403 (601768)
01-23-2011 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Artemis Entreri
01-23-2011 1:39 PM


Re: Say What? Who's Body?
Artemis Entreri writes:
as a Christian I feel abortion is wrong, and it is homicide, and a cardinal sin.
as an American I feel as if it is wrong to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body.
The problem I have with that is that it's not her body that's in question. It's that other person's body which she and it's father caused to become a live human being and perhaps a living soul as some of us agree is the case. According to Luke 1, John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb and leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary greeted her.
also as an American I feel it is wrong to hold others to my moral and religious views, and make them have the same views by law.
It's about killing a person more than what's moral. Should the babe be less safe in the womb than one minute out of the womb?
I would try and tell someone who wanted to have an abortion to not have one and think about it, but I would do nothing from preventing them from using their free will and making their own choices in life. I would also seek to keep legislation that allows for personal choices. You can educate right and wrong but you cannot legislate it.
There was a time when our nation did legislate it as unlawfully killing that other person unable to speak for and defend itself against pain and death.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-23-2011 1:39 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by subbie, posted 01-23-2011 11:32 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 108 by hooah212002, posted 01-24-2011 8:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 113 by subbie, posted 01-24-2011 4:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 403 (601770)
01-23-2011 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
01-23-2011 6:02 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
ringo writes:
What about the cases where she is forced?
The place to start is with those of mutual consent. The legality of exemption for others could be on a case by case basis.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 01-23-2011 6:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 01-24-2011 12:31 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 403 (601771)
01-24-2011 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by subbie
01-23-2011 11:32 PM


Re: Say What? Who's Body?
subbie writes:
.
I wasn't aware there was ever a Federal Law banning abortion. Do you happen to have a citation?
Also, are you planning on replying to my earlier post in this thread, or will it simply stand as silent testimony to your inability to respond?
I stand corrected. It was that the states had the right to ban it.
There was once this common law which would be the closest to at least a federal restriction at one time.
quote:
With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[2]
The federal government should allow the states to ban it. That's the way it was before Roe Wade. That's my position.
I've been too busy to respond much. I'll do what I can when I can.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by subbie, posted 01-23-2011 11:32 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 01-24-2011 9:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 403 (601784)
01-24-2011 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
01-24-2011 12:31 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
ringo writes:
Buzsaw writes:
The place to start is with those of mutual consent. The legality of exemption for others could be on a case by case basis.
The problem of exemptions is that they undermine your whole idea of "personhood". Is the fetus that was conceived out of rape less of a person?
I wasn't referring to my druthers. If I had my druthers, the only exemptions would be if the physical life of the mother was in danger.
My point was that if other exemptions are unavoidable, they should be on a case by case basis. Better to start somewhere than the way it is now.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 01-24-2011 12:31 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 01-24-2011 10:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 403 (601807)
01-24-2011 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by RAZD
01-23-2011 1:59 PM


Re: First: What is a person?
RAZD writes:
Hi Buz,
This thread appears to be quite appropriate for those who wish to address the abortion issues so as not to derail other threads.
Indeed. From Message 67 of the Politcal Compass thread:
In most cases nobody is force into having sex. ...
Nor is anyone really saying that you can't have sex between consenting adults.
We all know the responsibilities involving having sex, but too many want to be absolved from them by killing the life which their irresponsibility has brought to be.
RAZD writes:
The impetus of the creation of a new live person d into pregnancy lies with the parents of the baby.
These would be the people intentionally trying to conceive, rather than anyone having sex because, gosh, it feels good,........
Parent; Online Dictionary:
quote:
1. One who begets, gives birth to, or nurtures and raises a child; a father or mother.
The father and the mother are the one's doing the sex thing; the primary function being propagating the species.
RAZD writes:
The passing of a person from inside the womb to outside of the womb is irrelevant to the existence of the person.
So then what is relevant to the existence of a person: more explicitly what IS a person?
A person is every human being, all of whom originate (become a human being) in the womb, the life beginning in the womb, being part and parcel of the mother and father of him/her.
Abortion is the execution of a real life person.
RAZD writes:
Before we engage in emotional loading of the language, let's define what person is,
and then we can decide whether all instances of abortion involve death of a person, some instances of abortion involve death of a person, or no instances of abortion involve death of a person.
LOL, RAZD. Defining the term person is another ongoing debate topic between ideological counterparts. It's been ongoing for decades. Not all philosophers and scientists agree.
Since we all became life and originated in the womb, imo, it's silly to argue about when we became a person. We all had the need to take on nourishment and whatever is needful to progress from conception to full maturity and beyond.
That the 1st stages of our person hood took nutrients from the mother in the womb to progress and develop for exiting the womb has no more to do with life and person hood than when the baby (naturally) sucks the nutrients from the exterior breast of the mother and breaths the oxygen, from the atmosphere itself, etc.
Why should ingesting nutrients from an inner tube from the mother make the baby any less a person than sucking the nutrients from the exterior breast of the mother?
It is not totally known as to the psyche, the hearing and the emotions of infants in the womb. Perhaps the baby has more senses than we understand. Perhaps an eternal soul and some, including some scientists believe?
Abortion is just the beginning of end of freedom to live and to persue happiness. It goes from there to euthanasia to extermination as was the case in secularist totalitarian nations in Europe last century when over a hundred million lives were terminated by their own secularist governments.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix quotes.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2011 1:59 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by subbie, posted 01-24-2011 4:21 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2011 5:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 116 by onifre, posted 01-24-2011 6:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2011 9:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 127 of 403 (601920)
01-25-2011 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by RAZD
01-24-2011 7:44 PM


Re: Briterican's Strawman Points
RAZD writes:
Good point. We also have the case for abandoning babies, as the mother of Moses did, so that she did not have to deal with the consequences of her behavior.
It's a strawman point. This thread is not about abandonment (which was not the intent of the mother who counted on the bathing princess's compassion) or killing a teenager (Abraham knowing the prophecy of Jehovah concerning Isaac's preservation), the two strawmen Briterican cited. It's about the legality of pre-birth abortion.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2011 7:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-25-2011 8:30 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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