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Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 346 of 403 (603074)
02-02-2011 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by ringo
02-01-2011 11:33 PM


I didn't ask you who "should" decide. I asked you who does decide. And I asked you why the decision "should" be placed in different hands for a fetus than for a five-year-old.
Well I' telling who does decide here in Quebec, and who should decide in the US.
We don't have any John Q style dilemna's here, no 5 year old boys die because their parents don't have the money. Our society has decided that everything possible will be done to save his life.
The "collectivity" are complete strangers. You want them to make decision "for" a defenseless fetus and against a defenseless woman. What most people in this thread are saying is that the woman should be allowed to make the decision.
That's the thing right, because you built a society where some women have no other choice but to abort, because she has no other option. And because of this, being against abortion passes as wanting to put her in a crappy situation.
But what I'm saying in this thread is that we should give her other options. She should have so many better options, that abortion wouldn't even be an option anymore. Because many have said it in this thread: abortion is far from an easy thing for a woman. There are lot's of bad psychological effects that can come out of it (and I guess viewing it from an evolutionary POV it makes a lot of sense). So we as a society shouldn't feel comfortable about giving her abortion as her only option, letting her hurt herself.
So the reality is that yo uclaim to want to give her the choice, but the only choice you are giving her is abortion. Nothing else. How many woman abort, but would have liked to have that child ?
Because I totally agree with you guys: christianity, particularly in the US, is hypocrite. It is hypocrite because they are the most capitalists, and they should be the most socialists. They should be the ones voting for public health-care, public education system, etc. And so I agree with you when they come out against abortion, but don't give a cent when the child is born.
But realize that is not the approach I am taking. I am a socialist, and I live in a socialist society. I am for the foetus and the mother, and both of them once it is born.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 02-01-2011 11:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 02-02-2011 5:03 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 347 of 403 (603076)
02-02-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Theodoric
02-02-2011 10:54 AM


Re: step by step
That is the rub. You have to be asked to provide evidence. Maybe if you provided the evidence with your claims you wouldn't attempt to throw up crap like your ectopic pregnancy claim.
My ectopic pregnancy claim was perfectly legitimate. Two links were given showing that it does happen.
I do not understand why you get offended when I demand evidence for your claims. I do not trust anyone's claims. I want to see the actual source myself so I can be sure it is being represented accurately. If you have a problem with that, so be it.
I don't have any problem with people asking for references. I do, however, have a problem being called a ''self-righteous smug prolifers repeating the lies and half truths'', when that I have neither lied nor said half-truths anywhere in this thread.
As an admin you should know that all your claims are open for discussion and you should be providing evidence and sources for your claims, without being asked for them.
Of course, and I do when I can. And when I'm asked for references of claims I didn't think would be required (such as anecdotal personnal experiences), I give them when I can. And when I can't, I don't oblige people to believe me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2011 10:54 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2011 5:54 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 348 of 403 (603077)
02-02-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by hooah212002
02-02-2011 11:41 AM


Re: step by step
No, WE are not. You may be discussing that with other members, but not me. I am talking about all abortions.
Reread the discussion. We were talking about saving a foetus by c-section, which is specifically at a lower limit of 25 weeks. My comments to which you were replying were in reference to that special case.
Wanting my comments to apply to all abortion is moving the goalpost.
So before 25 weeks, it is ok to abort?
If the mother's life is in danger, yes.
That is the rub, don't you see? Each one of the anti-choicers has a different idea of when it becomes a life, but the lot of you still call ALL abortion murder.
Because my 100th cell position does not affect the abortion issue, but in vitro fertilisation and methods who prevent implantation of the embryo.
Ahh, the hypocrisy is astounding! So you have no problem flinging unwanted children into the system, into foster care or orphanages, but you don't want to give these children MORE chances to get placed into a happy home? Do you honestly think there are more foster parents than children looking for homes?
After millions of years of evolution of psychological mechanism hardwiring a child's head to have a father and a mother, how good do you think it is to put him with two fathers or mothers ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by hooah212002, posted 02-02-2011 11:41 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by jar, posted 02-02-2011 4:39 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 351 by onifre, posted 02-02-2011 5:26 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 353 by Coragyps, posted 02-02-2011 5:50 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 355 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2011 5:56 PM slevesque has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 349 of 403 (603078)
02-02-2011 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by slevesque
02-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: step by step
slevesque writes:
After millions of years of evolution of psychological mechanism hardwiring a child's head to have a father and a mother, how good do you think it is to put him with two fathers or mothers ?
Very good; in fact far better than in many other possible scenarios.
Now if you were advocating a strict licensing of parenthood, I might tend to agree with you.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 4:31 PM slevesque has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 350 of 403 (603080)
02-02-2011 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by slevesque
02-02-2011 4:13 PM


slevesque writes:
She should have so many better options, that abortion wouldn't even be an option anymore.
Abortion will always be an option.
What about a woman who is raped and gets pregnant? She'll always want the option of abortion. Some women will keep the child and love it regardless of its origins. Some will not. Who should decide which it will be?
Your policy needs to deal with reality.
Edited by ringo, : Added a question mark?

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 4:13 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 5:37 PM ringo has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3029 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 351 of 403 (603085)
02-02-2011 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by slevesque
02-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: step by step
After millions of years of evolution of psychological mechanism hardwiring a child's head to have a father and a mother
Nonsense. No such "hardwiring" exists.
A human child can be raised by two capable male apes just the same.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 4:31 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 352 of 403 (603088)
02-02-2011 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ringo
02-02-2011 5:03 PM


Abortion will always be an option.
What about a woman who is raped and gets pregnant? She'll always want the option of abortion. Some women will keep the child and love it regardless of its origins. Some will not. Who should decide which it will be?
Your policy needs to deal with reality.
Rape is the only case where I would consider abortion could still remain a better option for the woman because it is the only situation where the psychological effects of keeping the child could be worse then aborting it.
Even in a society where there were all these better options, I would be the last person to judge a raped woman who would get an abortion.
But if truely you are against abortion, but for the choice, then you should support what I have said, you should be in favor of giving the pregnant woman better options. Because that is not the case right now, right now, most woman only have the illusion of choice: the only choice they have is to abort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 02-02-2011 5:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Coragyps, posted 02-02-2011 5:56 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 357 by ringo, posted 02-02-2011 6:08 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 813 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 353 of 403 (603093)
02-02-2011 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by slevesque
02-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: step by step
After millions of years of evolution of psychological mechanism hardwiring a child's head to have a father and a mother, how good do you think it is to put him with two fathers or mothers ?
How about two or three fathers and one mother?
Ache [a Paraguayan tribe] data on multiple fathers and found that 70% of children with only one father survived to age 10, while 85% of children with primary and secondary fathers survived to age 10.
How about cultures where mothers, aunts, and grandmothers do the child-rearing, and fathers are rarely present?
anthro.vancouver.wsu.edu/media/.../HewlettMacFarlan_rev_3-30.doc

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 4:31 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 354 of 403 (603096)
02-02-2011 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by slevesque
02-02-2011 4:20 PM


Re: step by step
My ectopic pregnancy claim was perfectly legitimate. Two links were given showing that it does happen.
Bullshit. Lets look at your original claim
An ectopic pregancy will kill the mother if nothing is done. However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. In those cases, you should save it instead of just killing it with an abortion procedure.
You have provided one case. One case, that was extremely rare. You are advocating for women to try to carry an ectopic pregnancy to the point of viability. This is ludicrous to an extreme. Why don't you ask a doctor about this idea? It is a death sentence to many women and all of the fetuses except for a very, very rare few. As I said before, consult the medical literature. Do you think any other pro-lifers will support your assertion?
I do, however, have a problem being called a ''self-righteous smug prolifers repeating the lies and half truths'', when that I have neither lied nor said half-truths anywhere in this thread.
Lets see.
The ectopic preganacy, calling the Quebec gov't "baby killers", your claim of the protest against a pro-life home for pregnant girls(maybe you will look into the reasons for the protests, hint, has to do with the lies they were telling the girls), your claim that pro-choice=pro-abortion, misconstruing the partee quebecois demand for certification for all pregnancy counselors.
ABE Oh yeah and your not being ok with same-sex couple adopting. That sir is self-righteous.
Of course, and I do when I can.
Then why must I continually have to ask you to back up your assertions with facts and sources? If you look back on this thread you continually made factual claims with no support. That is why you were asked to provide evidence.
(such as anecdotal personnal experiences)
You should know that on a debate forum personal anecdote is worthless.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 4:20 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by purpledawn, posted 02-02-2011 8:14 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 355 of 403 (603098)
02-02-2011 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by slevesque
02-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: step by step
So before 25 weeks, it is ok to abort?
If the mother's life is in danger, yes.
But not ok to abort if mothers life is in danger post 25 weeks?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 4:31 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 813 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 356 of 403 (603099)
02-02-2011 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by slevesque
02-02-2011 5:37 PM


.....most woman only have the illusion of choice: the only choice they have is to abort.
Maybe in Quebec. In Texas you can't drive down a major highway or look in the Yellow Pages without seeing ads for "abortion alternatives."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 5:37 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 10:30 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 357 of 403 (603102)
02-02-2011 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by slevesque
02-02-2011 5:37 PM


slevesque writes:
Rape is the only case where I would consider abortion could still remain a better option for the woman because it is the only situation where the psychological effects of keeping the child could be worse then aborting it.
What about the woman's opinion? What if she thinks the psychological effect of raising a child in poverty could be worse than aborting it? Why should your opinion override hers?
slevesque writes:
Even in a society where there were all these better options, I would be the last person to judge a raped woman who would get an abortion.
How is that fetus less of a person than the wanted fetus?
slevesque writes:
But if truely you are against abortion, but for the choice, then you should support what I have said, you should be in favor of giving the pregnant woman better options.
I haven't said one single word against alternatives. I suggested that you, personally, could be doing more to help provide those alternatives. Until those alternatives are universally available, lobbying against abortion is the wrong approach.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 5:37 PM slevesque has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 358 of 403 (603119)
02-02-2011 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Theodoric
02-02-2011 5:54 PM


Re: step by step
quote:
You have provided one case. One case, that was extremely rare. You are advocating for women to try to carry an ectopic pregnancy to the point of viability. This is ludicrous to an extreme. Why don't you ask a doctor about this idea? It is a death sentence to many women and all of the fetuses except for a very, very rare few. As I said before, consult the medical literature. Do you think any other pro-lifers will support your assertion?
That's not what he advocates. Read his posts.
Only the abdominal pregnancy has carried to term that I know of. The other organs aren't large enough and Slevesque knows that. He's saying that if the fetus can be carried to the point of viability outside the womb without harming the mother, he feels that the attempt should be made. Only the abdominal pregnancy would allow that possibility. He's not saying that all ectopic pregnancies should be forced to continue until they burst.
quote:
But not ok to abort if mothers life is in danger post 25 weeks? Message 355
His point was that after 25 weeks the child should be able to survive outside the womb with help and therefore no need for abortion. Keep up. See his Message 339.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2011 5:54 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2011 8:51 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 359 of 403 (603124)
02-02-2011 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by purpledawn
02-02-2011 8:14 PM


Re: step by step
That's not what he advocates. Read his posts.
Bullshit read his post.
He presented a bizarre alternative to aborting an ectopic pregnancy. It was presented as if it was a very viable alternative to aborting ectopic pregnmacies. Then he found an article that showed one extremely rare and bizarre ectopic pregnancy that did resolve the way he suggests. If you read the article the doctors did not realize it was ectopic until very far along in the pregnancy.
The other organs aren't large enough and Slevesque knows that. He's saying that if the fetus can be carried to the point of viability outside the womb without harming the mother, he feels that the attempt should be made. Only the abdominal pregnancy would allow that possibility. He's not saying that all ectopic pregnancies should be forced to continue until they burst.
Are you sure he knows this? If this is true why didn't he say abdominal ectopic pregnancies in his first mention of ectopic pregnancies. I think probably because he was unaware of it until he researched it after he tried to peddle the pro-life crap he was using.
His point was that after 25 weeks the child should be able to survive outside the womb with help and therefore no need for abortion.
That is pro-lifer utopia talk. Things are not this simple and cut and dry in pregnancies, or for that matter anything in life. There would be circumstances where an abortion may be needed if the woman's life is and danger and the fetus would have a very difficult or not very likely chance of survival outside of the womb. The pro-life camp wants to make it black and white. it is not black and white. There are many scenarios, but they want it to be a simple scenario.
Baby gets born, no matter what the circumstances or issues. Pro-lifers pat themselves on the back and let the mother and child fend for themselves. Then condemn them if they need any public support. And god forbid we let the fags adopt the kid.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by purpledawn, posted 02-02-2011 8:14 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by slevesque, posted 02-02-2011 10:28 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 376 by purpledawn, posted 02-03-2011 7:41 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 360 of 403 (603141)
02-02-2011 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Theodoric
02-02-2011 8:51 PM


Re: step by step
Bullshit read his post.
No, purpledawn understood perfectly what I am trying to say.
Are you sure he knows this? If this is true why didn't he say abdominal ectopic pregnancies in his first mention of ectopic pregnancies. I think probably because he was unaware of it until he researched it after he tried to peddle the pro-life crap he was using.
I have already explained what happened in a previous post, but jsut for you I'll repeat it again here.
I had read an article about an ectopic pregnancy in which the foetus was saved. I did not know if this was rare or common, all I knew was that it happened.
So when I said ''when the foetus can be saved he should be'', and was asked for a specific example, I thought about that one. Once again, I did not say if it was rare or common. I simply said that it can happen a circumstance that you can either abort or try to save the foetus, and in those circumstances you should try to save it.
Then you asked for an example, and I linked you one. And you started piling crap on me.
That is pro-lifer utopia talk. Things are not this simple and cut and dry in pregnancies, or for that matter anything in life. There would be circumstances where an abortion may be needed if the woman's life is and danger and the fetus would have a very difficult or not very likely chance of survival outside of the womb. The pro-life camp wants to make it black and white. it is not black and white. There are many scenarios, but they want it to be a simple scenario.
Funny then, that I specifically said in one post not to try and make it seem as if I'm trying to paint this in black and white. In fact, it seems you are the one painting it that one. I am the one effectively saying that each case is different, and that in those cases where the foetus can be saved, it should. And in those cases where we can't save mother and child, then we should abort. I have been saying this throughout this issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2011 8:51 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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