Abortion questions...?

oh right. yeah. bad form mate looking forward to your return and response.

Of the avacado kind, yes (hehehe) But thats sorta what I hear from some proponents, including Michael Moore if i remember corectly (give me time, i'll look it up.) Sorry, I should have used better words. I meant that if it wans't a human being. Be careful! My dog and other animals may sue u for slander: It is degrading to animals to call humans an animal. They dont want to be associated with us for ANY reason whatever lol. I think im less than a human. My step sister said I have cro magnon facial features. Nicer than my older Brother's observations. Have to take ur word on that. Not experienced it yet.Cant stay long. Hope for the repli

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Yeah, but original...at least I hope.College coming up soon. Wont be on the site for a LOOONG time after mid august. And I moderate a different forum elsewhere. Not to mention my brthday soon.peace

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I suspect the chimps don't like to admit we're related to them.

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If giving them away was too much work, I'd put them in a sack with some rocks and find a river.No, really. They're just animals. You know, for all of human history, that's been done with unwanted babies, too. Abortion and infanticide have been absolutely natural and commonplace means of planning families in every civilization, for as long as there have been civilizations. The "tradition" to which the pro-lifers would have us return is a myth. Even in America abortion has always been absolutely legal, except for a few decades between the 1910's and the 1970's.Of course, slavery was common, too. Still is common, actually. As we move forward, trying to structure society in a way that is most advantageous for most people, slavery is definately not a part of that. But abortion very much seems to be. Avaliability of abortion improves the quality of life for all.

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If giving them away was too much work, I'd put them in a sack with some rocks and find a river.

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And that would be needlessly cruel.They can feel pain, and fear once they are born, crash, and it's terribly callous of you to drown them.Better to kill them instantly if you are too lazy to find them homes.

I guess. Though the river solution is both euthanasia and body disposal, all in one. But of course they can feel pain. Pain is a physiological alarm signal, not the Dark Side of the Force. I'm really only concerned about it when it's being caused in members of my own species.I don't imagine that a painless, non-scary death is actually possible. Why would organisms evolve with a weakness that allows them to die without realizing it?I eat meat, and I know that you do, too. Which means that you kill animals for your own selfish purpose, just like me. People who deal with that seem to deal with it in one of two ways - hippy-dippy "words of gratitude" for the animal that "gave it's life" that we might have a cheeseburger instead of a bowl of rice like most of the world, or the recognition that pain and death are the flip side of life, and we use these organisms for the same purpose that we ourselves will be used by others some day.

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I guess. Though the river solution is both euthanasia and body disposal, all in one. But of course they can feel pain. Pain is a physiological alarm signal, not the Dark Side of the Force. I'm really only concerned about it when it's being caused in members of my own species.

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How we treat other species when we decide they need to die is an indicator of the ability to empathise. Pain is pain, and to inflict it needlessly is cruel.We do consider it a warning sign of mental illness when people purposefully, needlessly inflict pain to animals, you know.

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I don't imagine that a painless, non-scary death is actually possible. Why would organisms evolve with a weakness that allows them to die without realizing it?

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Sure it's possible. Veterinarians do it all the time. Animals get put down and slaughtered all the time and they never know what's coming.

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I eat meat, and I know that you do, too. Which means that you kill animals for your own selfish purpose, just like me.

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Yes, but killing humanely and killing inhumanely are different, and are, I think, reasonably definable terms.

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People who deal with that seem to deal with it in one of two ways - hippy-dippy "words of gratitude" for the animal that "gave it's life" that we might have a cheeseburger instead of a bowl of rice like most of the world, or the recognition that pain and death are the flip side of life, and we use these organisms for the same purpose that we ourselves will be used by others some day.

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I view it with a combination of both attitudes, I suppose.There is, by the way, a very good practical reason to slaughter meat animals (particularly mammals) without them knowing what is about to happen at all.If pigs, for example, are terrified or going through a great deal of stress immediately before they are killed, they pump out a huge amount of adrenaline into their bodies. This makes the meat tough and can be very detrimental to the flavor, and is especially noticeable in long-aged hams.

And also when they wet the bed as children. You never did, I trust?Are you sure?I guess I don't see my method as wanton cruelty, or even torture for amusement, which is what I would consider indicative of sociopathy. People dispose of unwanted pets in all manner of means, almost none of which are truly painless. We don't seem to be terribly interested in lodging accusations of sociopathy against them. You really think so? You think the bolt gun to the forehead is truly painless? I doubt it. It's probably quite painful for a moment or two.Nobody really knows, though, for sure. The first seems very much a contradiction in terms to me. I don't see anything humane aboout killing. I accept the inhumanity of causing death when it suits a human purpose to do so. I'm a species-ist, I guess.I don't know, I guess. I was kind of being flippant before. I wouldn't go enormously out of my way to deal with some unwanted dogs, but I wouldn't torture them for pleasure. And if someone knew a better way to euthanize them that didn't require the expensive services of a veternarian, I would pay heed.

Well trying to get rid of puppies is as easy as putting an ad on craigslist or putting up a sign at the end of your road and taking part of a day to sit outside with a box full of puppies.If that is too much for you, just take them to your local animal shelter. They may get adopted and they may not, but those that don't will be humanely euthanized. No expense necessary. No drowning necessary.

Thanks for showing you are not worth a reply

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Yet, you replied.Eh, whatever. Honestly the whole idea of men sitting around arguing about what it's ok for women to do to their bodies is pretty ridiculous in the first place.As is starting a new thread on an old topic, merely to dodge a bunch of posts you aren't capable of responding to.

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And also when they wet the bed as children.

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I doubt that this is true. I understand bedwetting to be primarily a physical issue.

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I guess I don't see my method as wanton cruelty, or even torture for amusement, which is what I would consider indicative of sociopathy.

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I am not saying that drowning puppies is always a sign of a sociapathic tendency. I do see that feeling nothing at all while doing so might be. Drowning takes time, and is a very frightening way to die for any higher mammal.

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People dispose of unwanted pets in all manner of means, almost none of which are truly painless.

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I never said that "truly painless" was a requirement for humane killing of animals. I said something like, "needlessly causing suffering and fear" was inhumane.

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We don't seem to be terribly interested in lodging accusations of sociopathy against them.

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Like I said, they aren't neccessarily sociopaths, just callous towards the pain and suffering of non-human species.And, just because "everybody else does it" is not a very convincing argument.To me it's like the recent reaction of many people to the misconduct of American soldiers in the killing and rapes of civilians and in the torturing of detainees, which is, "Oh well, these things happen."Sure, they do but they are wrong things to have happen and we should never be blase about them.

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You really think so? You think the bolt gun to the forehead is truly painless? I doubt it. It's probably quite painful for a moment or two.

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I wasn't referring to conventionally-slaughtered cattle.

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The first seems very much a contradiction in terms to me. I don't see anything humane aboout killing. I accept the inhumanity of causing death when it suits a human purpose to do so. I'm a species-ist, I guess.

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Killing is a part of life, and we are endowed with big brains which give us the capacity to feel empathy.It isn't inhumane to kill. It is inhumane to inflict needless pain and suffering.

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I don't know, I guess. I was kind of being flippant before. I wouldn't go enormously out of my way to deal with some unwanted dogs, but I wouldn't torture them for pleasure. And if someone knew a better way to euthanize them that didn't require the expensive services of a veternarian, I would pay heed.

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You can always turn them over to the humane society who will try to find them homes, and if they can't, then they will put them down.Believe me, far more unwanted pets are adopted in this country than unwanted children.

Hey somebody has to tell you that y're being a sadistic cruel *#@**!, might as well be myself. No, not just whatever. You just stated with youre own words that you would commit cruely to animals. Most people reading youre post probably think that you are #@*@#! like I do. And yet you argue it Besides, Brennakimi is a woman, and does argue in this thread. Did thou forget this, hmmm? I cant readpond to those in the gay marraige thread due to something I have called a LIFE. I have much better things to do than debate 30+ or so people almost by myself about that particular area, and it eats up plenty of time I will never get back. If it was only a few to debate with, or 1 on 1, I would have kept with it.I was going to ignore youre posts, but I couldn't resist this last one.Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Not because I enjoy cruelty. I just don't find the suffering of an animal to be one of my top priorities. Animals are for my use, if I choose to use them, and I have the power to do so. Much as I'm for their use, if they have the opportunity and the power to use me. It was your posts in the thread on abortion I was referring to. I'm so terribly sorry that you don't have the time or inclination to respond to rebuttals, but if that's the case, opening a new thread on the same topic seems pretty fucking ridiculous, doesn't it?