Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan

Talk to someone else, Jar. Buzsaw staying the topic course.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

We'd never hear it let up how evil a force Christianity is if there were Christian terrorists blowing up themselves to earn a place in heaven as martyrs, but these same folks cannot bring themselves to admit that a very large portion of Islam is inherently anti-liberty and violently oppressive.

Which view? Qur'an only? Yes I know. Most Christians don't agree with the Creationists here, should we use that argument to settle debates? Liaquat Ali Khan says the following in "The Reopening of the Islamic Code: The Second Era of Ijtihad": (which is referenced on wiki).In essence anything above and beyond the Qur'an (possibly including the Sunnah) is culture. It is inspired and derived from reasoning and interpretations agreed upon by certain people that certain Muslims trust to come to a good conclusion about something.As such it is not inerrant (any more than Pope Urban II's word is, even though many once considered his words God's will), it is not the word of God - only inspired by the word of God. No, however it does say that if someone of a different religion leaves you alone, you should leave them alone also. If they attack you you should respond in kind - but if they repent you should leave them alone again for Allah is Merciful. Well - the non-Muslim is certainly going to hell, just like the non-Christians are according to them. I agree that in this regard, the two are as bad as each other.It all brings us nicely back to the beginning. It is not Islam that is violent, it is certain people's interpretation of it. Some of those interpretations are very old, but that does not make them inerrant. (sarcasm)is that so? And here I was thinking that Muhammed was the guy that floated like a butterfly. No wonder I've got this Islam thing all muddled(/sarcasm).If it didn't strike you as obvious, I was referring to Muhammed himself as a human. The only thing that made him 'special' was that he was chosen to have the revelation. I was stating that the Qur'an stresses that Muhammed is not perfect (40:55), and as such his actions should not be held as perfect and godly.It does say that if you obey the Messenger you obey Allah (4:60) - but it also says that Muhammed's duty is only to deliver the Message (5:99), so I take that to indicate that when Muhammed delivers the message we should obey him since it is Allah that talks, but only in delivering the Message.Indeed - Muhammed is pretty much on par with the other prophets. The only difference is that Muhammed was the last and his word is preserved by Allah in the form of the Qur'an. But then - we could also regard Noah as special too, and Ibraham. They were all men, and sinners too.Now - if you are going to replicate the life of somebody, you might as well choose a prophet. They are, after all, somewhat noteworthy - otherwise why choose them, right? However, men are products of culture and time and of necessity. What was right for Muhammed then, might not be right for him now, if he lived today.

---

abe:
Another argument for Qur'an Alone incidentally, and its a strong one, is that in the Qur'an, Allah says that the Qur'an is complete. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

I think you are whitewashing the essential character of Islam, which means submission. Islam is a highly legalistic religion with great emphasis on Sharia and applying Islamic law to people. There's not a lot of room in there for the kind of Western liberties many Americans believe or believed are universal.It would be great if Islam could see a reform within itself so that it could be harmonious with the truths our forefathers held to be self-evident, but that's not happened yet, and may never happen. Islam has some real stumbling blocks within it that are hard to get around.Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Submission to God the creator of the heavens and earth, not idiots with guns! No, Middle Eastern culture is highly legalistic with great emphasis on Sharia and applying Islamic law to people. Islam is about God and what God says. God says the Qur'an is complete, and that Muhammed does not have the authority to edit what God says (66:1).It is sometimes difficult to extract culture and religion, especially in religions which have so many extant theocracies. And this I agree with. The culture that has built up around it has caused many stumbling blocks. If Muslims turn back and read the word of God and not the word of scholars, then perhaps things would be a lot better. Unfortunately, as I hinted in my first post here, there are too many people with power that want to keep it. They would do a lot to keep hold of that power and that includes murder and rape.I think its just a case of time, I hope this current wave of extremism comes to a conclusion in the near future. I hope it lasts for at most one generation - but I fear it may be much longer. Instead of causing fear of Islam, which can only help entrench the schism between the cultures, we should seek to understand Islam. We should encourage Qur'an Alone readings, with suitable deffference to culture and tradition.Anti-Islamic propaganda just makes the situation worse.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

I don't think he's doing any such thing I'm a Muslim and I agree with a lot of what he says. The core message of Islam is "Submission to God", it doesn't insinuate that all non believers should be forcefully subjugated or whatever else you might be implying there. It must be highlighted that there are hugely different interpretations of Sharia. There is no concensus. One could say the same about many other religions. Christianity before the reformation wasn't much different to Islam today. Your comments are ironic though in light of the attack on secularism by the Christian right in America. I remain hopeful. Islam is no different than any other religion. I personally endorse a liberal reformation of Islam, and while I may be in the minority these kind of changes don't happen overnight. Edited by Isana Kadeb, : No reason given.

So what would happen if a man whipped out his Bible or maybe the Vedic scriptures in Egypt or Saudi Arabia and some Muslims started converting to the religion of their own choosing? That's not true. Catholicism was not much different. Christianity, on the other hand, was always different, and often Christians and Christianity, those professing the same beliefs as Christians today, were the ones being persecuted by the Pope.

Pointing out the genocide of the Islamic jihad in the Sudan is not anti-Islamic propaganda, and is no different than pointing out things like the Holocaust perpetuated by the NAZIs.NAZIism like the jihadi faith is indeed a force of great evil. That's quite obvious and it is quite proper to condemn both. Now, were all Germans Nazis?No, and not all Muslims are jihadis, and though that is perhaps a poor comparison since the NAZIs did rule all of Germany, the point is that a great portion of Islam is inflamed with this, and trying to minimize this as not motivated by theology is a little silly.I would hope a more "liberal" form of Islam would emerge, but it's not mainstream Islam at present. The fact many Western Muslims can embrace liberty and Islam is a good sign, and I believe most Muslims around the world pretty much share the same values as all people, family, wanting to worship God (well maybe not all on that point), etc,....but the radical move in Islam is very strong.Edited by randman, : No reason given.

You made an interesting reply Shades of a No True Scotsman fallacy, but it works to both our advantages. Edited by Isana Kadeb, : No reason given.

Maybe you should try to keep up with your own thread. I have said a number of times that they do claim their religion as justification. My argument has been that such an interpretation is a self serving one and that the text themselves do not prescribe the things you would obviously like to associate with them.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

If you can show a strong line of consistent beliefs from it's founding until today supporting the exact same beliefs, maybe it can work both ways.The problem is early Christianity was not Catholic, and with the advent of Catholicism, there were always Christians that rejected it such as the Donatists, and the aberration of Catholicism and the early Protestant theology that held onto Catholicism in areas of persecuting others died away. So what we had was an aberration.I am not sure the militarism in Islam is an aberration.Are you?

Well then you obviously didn't bother to read my posts: Message 6
Message 8
Message 52
Message 71
Message 122
You really should try to keep up randman. I mean, for sakes, I spent the whole time this thread agreeing with you on this point and you slam me as if you though I somehow I didn't. THE VERY MESSAGE you replied to I was trying to tell you this.Please try to read the posts before you make assumptions and make yourself look foolish by rebutting something that wasn't even a challange.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

To SOME Moselms yes. But not the majority of Moslems around the world. As long as you are not trying to take this argument and try to apply it to all of Islam then there is no debate. I it silly to disagree that some Moslems do hold to Sharia and consider it holy. That is a matter of fact.I have a feeling though that you are trying to make this an issue of Islam in general and that is why I am participating in this thread. Such an extension is ludicrous and highly indicitive of prejudice.

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

People are not going to admit it because it simply isn't true. It is a ton of crap and most intelligent people can spot such fanatically prejudice a mile away. There is a very slim difference between.Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access DeniedandAttention Required! | Cloudflare

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Total Crap. Most Moslems don't follow Sharia in the ways of the extremists. A significant number do but the majority does not.Edited by Jazzns, : Some clarification for what was too brief a post

---

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)