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Author Topic:   Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams
macaroniandcheese 
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Posts: 4258
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Message 16 of 166 (268808)
12-13-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
12-13-2005 11:26 AM


Re: My changed mind
quite.
besides the point that reformation is always a possibility. now, i'm not suggesting that we just randomly let every rapist and murderer who seems to be a better person now go, but those who have significantly proven their value to society should, at the very least be allowed to live and thus serve society even if it is under close supervision. stanley williams had the chance to make a difference in this world and our laws ruined that chance. we have wounded ourselves and we will continue to do so until we realize the inherent flaws in the system.
execution as punishment cannot stand because we are so flawed that we cannot ensure the guilt of those we kill.
execution has long been defeated as a deterrent. it doesn't work.
therefore, there is no standing for capital punishment.
it doesn't resolve the anguish of victims and families and it doesn't prevent more crime. it is pure, mindless, agressive rage and civilized governments should not participate in it.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
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Message 19 of 166 (268840)
12-13-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Silent H
12-13-2005 1:57 PM


Re: My changed mind
To my mind a quick and painless death to those that pose a proven and continued risk the community is merciful and civilized to both the murderer and the community.
the proof is in the pudding. and in this case, our judicial system seem to be pudding heads. until no one is ever released from a wrongful sentence, i cannot stand behind execution. in my opinion, life in prison is a substantial punishment. i am one of those people not opposed to labor prisons. make them serve the society they betrayed. make them sort our garbage or something. but don't decide who lives and dies. that reduces you to their level.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-13-2005 02:57 PM

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 22 of 166 (268855)
12-13-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Silent H
12-13-2005 3:13 PM


Re: My changed mind
i don't think it is necessary to kill someone to prevent them from committing a crime.
capital punishment is an act of revenge. nothing more, nothing less. eye for an eye and all that bullshit. i don't ascribe to it and i think it should be ended.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 25 of 166 (268879)
12-13-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
12-13-2005 3:54 PM


Re: My changed mind
heh. even better. i was going for "vengence is mine". nice. so we kill people to keep out unbalanced budget.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 28 of 166 (268891)
12-13-2005 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
12-13-2005 4:11 PM


Re: My changed mind
i know. we just find all the people that might kill someone and, to prevent them from doing it, we just kill/abort them. i'm sure it's feasable.
i mean. if preventing crime is the purpose of our executions...

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
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Message 31 of 166 (268961)
12-13-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
12-13-2005 4:29 PM


Re: Death Penalty
no of course not. once damned, always damned. cause yeah. the rest of us are perfect and have never made mistakes, ever.
dear god someone's gonna say something stupid about 'messing up and stealing a twinkie from walmart is a little different than killing someone'. and it'll be the same schmuck who says that sin is sin and a lie is like murder.
and what does the bible say about hating is the same as killing?

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 33 of 166 (268970)
12-13-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
12-13-2005 7:08 PM


Re: Death Penalty
speaking of which...

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 51 of 166 (269065)
12-13-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by coffee_addict
12-13-2005 11:11 PM


Re: Revenge
graphs mean nothing. you might as well look at crosstabs. insert the data, run a regression, difference of means, etc. on top of that. you'll have to look at intervening factors such as crime prevention spending, educational success, general feeling of quality of life, and so forth.
but then i'm just a poli sci major. it's not what i will prolly do for a living or anything. ask pink sas. prolly knows better than i.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-13-2005 11:20 PM

“I asked for the vegetarian."
"Ah, yes, the vegetarian, yes! There we go, Mr. Hitler. There we go... Like a bit of wine? Thank you very much...you Nazi shithead!"

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 58 of 166 (269154)
12-14-2005 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Silent H
12-14-2005 9:16 AM


Re: My changed mind
oh god, morrisey.
ok sure. killing someone prevents them from doing a lot of things. but i don't think it's the only way, nor do i find it an acceptable solution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 9:16 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 61 of 166 (269173)
12-14-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Silent H
12-14-2005 10:24 AM


Re: My changed mind
It is for some, that was my point. Unless you are planning on turning people who are bent on violence and murder into "brains in vats" and so incapable of such conduct... maybe paralyzing them... execution is about the only way.
somehow solitary isn't good enough for you? oh sure, hannibal got out, but that was a movie. i am personally of the opinion that the most torturous thing of all would be an extended life devoid of stimuli and companionship, not death. death is an escape, whether you believe in more or not.
Since it is a govt by us, our tastes will be taken into consideration.
i can't believe you. sorry, i live in florida where it is govt by jeb.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 10:43 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 64 of 166 (269191)
12-14-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Silent H
12-14-2005 10:43 AM


Re: My changed mind
If a person has killed and poses a real risk for killing again, then it makes no sense for a govt to store them away and devote resources to that permanent storage.
well. i think it was lam who already stated that it's way more expensive to execute someone. maybe you should find me some figures. i would, but i'm completely lost as to where to look.
oops. pushed the go button before i meant to.
Uh... are you seriously claiming that prisoners do not escape, particularly violent criminals who then go on to kill some more?
no not really. but i think it is quite reasonable that flight is a manageable risk and should not play into the equation. particularly if we bother to design good prisons (at least as good as the schools we build. those are great prisons.).
Heheheh... I already skewered the hypocrisy of this position. If indeed life imprisonment is WORSE than simply being killed, why would it make sense to argue we shouldn't execute people because some of them might be innocent?
If you really believe the statement above it seems that the more humane thing is to kill the convicted whether they are innocent of guilty. That would be the lesser punishment. Your position... not mine.
let me be more specific. it has the positive features of both being drawn out for the truly guilty and reversable for the truly innocent. if you believe lam, it's cheaper. it's win win win.
i'd like to bring up the middle eastern tradition of removing the right hand from theives. it sure would prevent someone from stealing. or at least make it a lot harder. but it would also make it hard to eat or clean oneself or make an honest living or anything else (particularly with the traditional restrictions on using the left hand for such things.).
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-14-2005 11:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 66 of 166 (269196)
12-14-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Silent H
12-14-2005 11:02 AM


Re: My changed mind
I said it did not make sense to store what amounts to rabid animals and devote resources to such storage.
i am still disturbed by the idea that these people cannot be fixed. i think anyone can be fixed. maybe it takes serious psychological counseling, maybe just learning a trade, maybe a lot of things. but i find it heartless to give up on them. but then i'm an idealist and i'm also quite aware that i'm a sociopath.
i mean, i wanna kill. i mean. kill. kiill kiiill kiiiiill kiiiiiiiiiill. sorry. arlo took me.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 70 of 166 (269231)
12-14-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Silent H
12-14-2005 11:22 AM


Re: My changed mind
wold you say that stanley williams was one of those people? or how about the other people we've executed? oh sure dahmer, hitler, etc. but probably not most of the people executed. but who is to make that call? i don't think anyone is qualified. therefore, the call cannot be made.
but i'm sure others would argue qualification.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2005 1:31 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 71 of 166 (269233)
12-14-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by wiseman45
12-14-2005 12:07 PM


Re: A revert
that's a whole lot of ifs.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 81 of 166 (269283)
12-14-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Silent H
12-14-2005 1:31 PM


Re: My changed mind
Dahmer was murdered and Hitler killed himself. Both events I might note happen to innocent people unjustly imprisoned (not that Hitler even reached that point).
If there are innocent people being executed, when that is the most carefully scutinized process of all types of legal cases there are, how many innocents are languishing in jail under the more oppressive conditions that you yourself outlined?
How many end up dying in prison?
i'm aware of their fates.
the thing about imprisonment is that it is reversable. no, you can't give them their time back, but they can be compensated. execution is a bit more final. further, very little prevents innocents from using the time productively... as a rather nasty sabbatical perhaps. clearly mr williams and many other people have done so (hitler being a rather nefarious example not of innocence but of constructive, if icky, endevour). yes, i'm sure many die in prison. just imprisoning everyone isn't the answer. we do need to overhaul the system as a whole, but i don't think execution should be a part of the new system. because i don't trust even a reformed system to be able to properly apply it. humans are flawed and exectution is too final.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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