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Author Topic:   Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 146 of 166 (275011)
01-02-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by macaroniandcheese
01-02-2006 1:27 PM


Re: sorry it's long.
Richard Dawkins writes:
But doesn't a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not?
If you have thought of Richard Dawkins as an important evolutionary scientist, you should give up that idea right now. For to credit Dawkins with any scientific achievement is to say that Dawkins is responsible for that work. Yet Dawkins himself denies "the very idea of responsibility."
Okay, that's a bit tongue in cheek. I am applying Dawkins' reasoning to Dawkins himself to show that it makes no sense.
It is standard practice for scientists to take a mechanistic stance toward what they are studying in their science. Dawkins is making the mistake of treating that stance as if it were reality. He thereby implicitly denies his own consciousness, the purposefullnes of his own activities, his own humanity. Is it any wonder that some people are confused? See Evolution and Specialness of Humanity for a discussion of such confusion.
That Dawkins' thesis on responsibility does not work should be clear from the fact that Dawkins does not even seem to follow it himself.
Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused's physiology, heredity and environment. Don't judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?
If Dawkins really believed his own thesis on responsibility, he would believe that the court itself is merely behaving in accordance with antecedent conditions. But here he is holding the courts responsible for their decisions.
I'm sorry, Mr Dawkins, but I must disagree. We are conscious. We are, under normal circumstances, responsible for our conscious actions. And evolution works, and is so creative, because biological systems are not the mechanistic systems that you take them to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-02-2006 1:27 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 01-02-2006 2:40 PM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 148 of 166 (275032)
01-02-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by crashfrog
01-02-2006 2:40 PM


Mechanism, or not?
crashfrog writes:
I would, in fact, say the opposite - evolution works and is creative because biological systems are essentially mechanistic, not in spite of that fact.
We will have to agree to disagree on that, at least for the moment. A discussion would take us far off-topic, and into what should be discussed in a science forum rather than the Coffee House.
Dawkins is correct that, ultimately, all of our actions stem from (possibly undescribable) mechanistic consequences of natural law.
I disagree with that. I see "natural law" as having consequences for us, but only in the sense that we use them in our planning and in our decisions. I take natural law to be a human invention. Nature is under no obligation to obey natural law. Rather we, or our scientists, are under an obligation to design what we call "natural law" so that it describes nature as closely as possible.
Again, this is drifting off-topic. If you want further discussion it should be in a science thread somewhere.
Ultimately, people have the right to choose to commit crimes.
That somehow seems contradictory. If our behavior is mechanistic in the way you say it is, then we have no ability to choose anything.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 01-02-2006 2:40 PM crashfrog has not replied

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