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Author Topic:   Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams
wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 166 (268881)
12-13-2005 4:22 PM


Death Penalty
Let me ask you all a question:
Throughout the history of criminal execution, thousands, maybe millions, have died when it was not necessary. I don't know much about the Stanley Tookie Williams case: my point on it is if there is hard evidence to show that Williams did kill the 4 people that he was convicted of killing, then he deserved to die, because even though he repented for starting the Crips, an organization that I think just emulates one of the cancers of this country, he never did admit to the murders. So, he can say he didn't do it, but if hard evidence showed otherwise, its irrelevant. Think: if you were the loved one of those dead people, and you knew that Williams did it, what would you want to happen to him?
However, if there is no hard evidence pinning the murders on him, then he died unjustly. That's my opinion. Convicted killers who mercilessly murdered for greed, passion, or whatever, and where it is clear that they did it with malice, then they deserve to die. The death penalty can most certainly be applied there. But only when it is absolutely clear that the man did it. Did Williams do it? Heck, I don't know. Can someone find out exactly what evidence he was convicted on here?
However, it sounds like that this guy may have been innocent or at least sorry about his crimes, in that case he should at least still be alive. Maybe. I don't know. I need to research this more.

Replies to this message:
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wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 166 (269228)
12-14-2005 12:07 PM


A revert
Just to revert back to the actual Tookie Williams Case: What I mean is, that if Williams killed the 4 people for which he was convicted and there is conclusive, solid evidence (not witness testimony, not just circumstance, you get it) to pin him to those murders, then no matter what he's done, writing books, attempted to redeem himself for starting the Crips, yada yada, he still never admitted to committing the crimes. The Rev. Jesse Jackson (who I consider a class A idiot, and I'm no racist, sorry) likes to use the word "redemption" in describing Tookie Williams' case. Well, in my eyes, the first step to redemption is admitting what you did and apoligizing for it. If he did murder those people, then he never confessed. Why not confess to the murders when he's on the execution table? If he truly did kill those people, then that means that he doesn't care about the people whatsoever, and the whole "I'm sorry for starting the Crips" thing is one big farse. But again, that's IF he killed those people. If he killed them, then he was a psychopathic killer, and he died a psychopathic killer. If he didn't, he didn't deserve to die, because he repented for the crips. See what I mean? The Death Penalty should only be used on the worst criminals, and if he did what they say he did, Williams was one of those criminals.

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 12:13 PM wiseman45 has not replied

wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 166 (269257)
12-14-2005 1:51 PM


Policies on Execution
Here's my general policy on executing criminals:
1. Speediness needs to be improved. While its important to make sure that a criminal truly deserves to be executed...27 years on Death Row is just too long. Might as well give them life in prison if you're gonna do that.
2. They need to raise the rate at which executions are carried out, among convicted murderers, especially. Think about it. You want to kill somebody. But you know, if you're caught and convicted, you will die for that crime. Doesn't that seem like a good deterrent?
3. Death Row candidates can only be convicted on solid evidence, where its clear that they did it because they left their fingerprints or DNA at the crime scene or on a weapon.
Well, what do you think about that? 3 golden rules about Death Row. Wow. What an achievement.
This message has been edited by wiseman45, 12-14-2005 04:10 PM

I don't know any fancy proverbs, so if you expected one, go away

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wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 166 (269300)
12-14-2005 4:05 PM


suggest a good alternative
Okay, so maybe the death penalty does not serve as a deterrent. But what about the alternative? Sure. They spend the rest of their lives in prison. Usually, in some states, its seems that at least 75% of all criminals who get sentenced to life are parolled way before their life is over--some are even parolled when they're still young enough to hurt someone! All they have to do is lie to the parol board, and they're as free as a bird.
Meanwhile, I'm a proponent of criminals in this country having too many rights. Especially hard felons. It should be like this: all violent felons, nation-wide, should be locked up, 23 hours a day, with the remaining hour of yard time. No Tv. No forms of entertainment whatsoever. If they want to write down their thoughts or draw, they get a dull pencil and a pad of paper. Really bad food would be good too. For especially well-behaved cons, you could have it so they get more priveleges. They earn them. They don't get them.
Now that would be a detterent. If you know that killing someone gets you that kind of life, automatic upon conviction with 1 appeal if there is evidence to support it, then that should be it. You might think twice before you kill someone. Would you not? Probably once you initiated this system, and launched a PR campaign to back it all up, the crime rate would go down.
The reason I said what I did about crime can be fought with an iron fist via the death penalty is because in nations that have stricter justice systems they have lower crime rates. Its a fact of life. All I know is that SOMETHING has to be done about crime in this country--it is out of control, and even though we have very efficient police forces, the justice system is out of control, and in cities like LA you have one attempted armed robbery every 20 minutes with the police having to watch thier every move lest they risk legal action by some laywer claiming they're all racists or impeding on rights or whatever. As things stand, things in this country on saftey-wise ideas aren't going anywhere fast.
*sigh* I probably sound like an old cranky hermit.
This message has been edited by wiseman45, 12-14-2005 04:06 PM
This message has been edited by wiseman45, 12-14-2005 04:10 PM

I don't know any fancy proverbs, so if you expected one, go away

Replies to this message:
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 Message 87 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-14-2005 5:11 PM wiseman45 has not replied

wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 166 (269461)
12-14-2005 8:49 PM


Clarification Statement
Sorry, maybe I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be:
I wasn't trying to suggest any new plans, I'm fully aware of the fact that these plans are already in place in several places across the nation. (I particularly like the Oklahoma State Pen. Policy of total lockdown, that's what I was trying to emulate.) However, I do believe that they need to be more strictly applied on a more national level. For instance: when a person is sentenced to death, and lets say the case was that they raped and murdered a woman and then killed her father who arrived unexpectedly on the scene to cover it up, but they left their own blood and the victim's blood all over the place...yada yada yada. (I won't get too detailed) This was collected and it was clear the perpetrator did it..case closed.
They get sentenced to death. However, what I am against is even for those who have massive evidence to suggest guilt, the condemned usually get an average of 10-15 years on Death Row because of appeals at the least. Why should the country have to pay for their care and such? Why, when its clearly a malicious psychopath we're dealing with here, do we have to go through dozens of automatic appeals when there is no evidence to suggest that person might in fact be innocent? For instance: Scott Peterson has about a 50-50 chance of spending at least half of the remainder of his life of Death Row before his execution date is even set. Why is that? Everyone knows he did it. Why do we mess around with worthless apeal cases? Just one example.
Furthermore, sure, without TV, prison would even be more of a living hell as you put it. Who cares? If its a semi-max or even maximum security facility, why should they get any priveleges whatsoever? A person who has life without perole did something really bad, in the vast majority of cases. They will never leave that prison. Good. If they killed someone either out of passion or greed or just because they're a sociopath, why do they deserve any priveleges, unless they prove that they can handle those priveleges?
And then you say that prisons are a living hell because of gang-rapes and murders. Where do all these things happen? In ungaurded cells or in the yard. Prison gangs shouldn't even be allowed to exist. If so many prisoner-prisoner crimes occur, lock 'em all up. Again, the Oklahoma State Pen, for example, has been on total lockdown since a series of jailbreak riots occured about a decade ago in which several gaurds were killed. Prisoners are allowed 1 hour per day of heavily secured yard time where there every action is watched by gaurds with shotguns. Otherwise, they're only allowed to come out if they have a very important visitor or if they have a prison job. That's it. The rest of the day, they're in their cells. And there's not been a single act of violence in years, of course, on prison grounds.
Here's a little tidbit of info:
In several prisons across the country, convicted felons are allowed to play violent video games on computers. May I ask who thought that was a good idea? How are they going to get reabilitated into society that way?
Generally, what I like to say is my belief is that if would-be violent felons criminals know, either through a PR campaign or some other means, or just through the grapevine, that if they assuault with a deadly weapon or kill or rape or do all three, they are going to a place where they are locked up in cages like animals for 23 hours a day, no freedoms except for those earned through extremely good behavior and display of willingness to be rehabilitated, yada yada yada, they won't commit as many crimes. Several criminals have lives that are worse than many prisons are today. So, they look at it as they don't lose much if they go to jail, and a reward might await them if they sucessfully commit their crime without being captured. If you make prisons the worst place in America, and I mean the worst, so that even a bum living on the street who gets beaten up every day wouldn't want to go there, do you think the crime rate will decrease? Of course.
And people ramble on about how prisoners are entitled to rights, yada yada yada, they're already too mistreated, uh-huh...goes on and on and on. IF you deliberately hurt someone for your own gain, should you be entitled to any rights? I certainly don't think so? Anyone who does can explain themselves to me, and I'll be around to listen: but, if don't agree with me, then present your own strategy for lowering crime in America.

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 9:04 PM wiseman45 has not replied
 Message 101 by FliesOnly, posted 12-15-2005 9:44 AM wiseman45 has not replied

wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 166 (269615)
12-15-2005 9:57 AM


Good point
Yes, I suppose I did contradict myself there, didn't I?
"3. Death Row candidates can only be convicted on solid evidence, where its clear that they did it because they left their fingerprints or DNA at the crime scene or on a weapon."
I think that Scott Peterson probably is going to serve life without parole anyway--they're never going to execute him. How many people has California executed since it reinstated the death penalty? About 12, it seems? How many people are on San Quentin's death row...about 600?
No, I'm pretty convinced he will probably die of natural causes before he gets the "needle." I suppose that's a proper term.
This message has been edited by wiseman45, 12-15-2005 09:59 AM

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