A good School.

College students in general tend to be this way if they've picked up the idea that they're pretty smart.

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Can I ask what specific areas of philosophy you are interested in?

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Well a couple years back at a Christian Camp, I met a guy named Brian. He had short blonde dreadlocks, and was a funny looking person. At the sight of him I would usually crack up laughing I remember. But the 2nd week I was there, he was my counselor, and he taught us everyday during the time we were supposed to be in other activities about philosophy, the subjective, objective, capitalism, and a little politics. From then on, I had a feeling that I needed to know more about myself, about God. He turned us on to some amazing passages in the bible, he read extremely slow, like a 2nd grader, but he knew far more than I could grasp at the time. He talked of flying to Indonesia, and living there, of becoming a philosophy professor, and through these lessons with our group I learned a lot. He taught us about this one passage In Matthew 23:25-28

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25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. 26 You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

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Amazing how as I write this I realize that I need it. I need this knowledge, and I have forsaken the teachings that have allowed me to be who I am, and allowed me to grow.He taught us about intentions and motives, and how not to judge those that have done things, because the intentions of the people are what matter.I realize now that a similar phenomenom occured at Vassar during a disscussion; We disscussed Hotel Rwanda, and how the Hutus slaughtered innocents. We disscussed terrorists, and how we (America) could not turn into a plot in "The Siege", segregating Muslims, into cages, out of fear. I called my peers Hutus, saying that 98 percent of the population of Hutus took part in the slaughter, and that saying we were different, or that we wouldn't do that, was ignorance, and I called them Hutus. This may have been because I couldn't believe that I could be the one to do it, and I wanted to be different than them. But this message was in my head, in my thoughts from a passage that I had forgotten, that had been lost. How pathetic, and yet how beautiful, how rejuvenating.Maybe it isn't the same philosophy that I had thought I wanted to be a part of, maybe it was with me all along.But to answer the original question, I am very interested in existentialism, epistemology, and the ideas of Marx and Engles. I know that if I went into philosophy, or theology, I would learn more, and I could come closer to answering questions, and closer to being out of this world. Closer to God.Thanks to everyone for the responses, I responded to holmes because I feel that he knows a lot about it, and can help me out. Great poster.I have met several people that a recent Global Studies teacher has termed "dwellers", people that resonate strong sounds, we pick up on these people, and we learn from them, I feel that Brian was a "dweller", Mr. H., my teacher was and still is a "dweller". I met a man at the local ski mountain one day last year. I never saw him before in my life, I was eating a sandwich, and he came out of the lunch line, and asked me if I was alone, and he sat down, and ate lunch with me. He asked me what I was interested in and I said Philosophy, it was wierd, but he attended several philosophy courses at Cornell, or some other good school he told me. So he talked to me about his life, and about the meaning of life, and I went home and wrote down some notes trying to remember what he had said desperately. Here's some of the stuff he told me. He was in the Army, and lost 25 % of his hearing due to drugs that were prescribed, he was articulate, and knew a lot. I forget his name, he talked about things that I don't remember were his meanings now that I write the nots, called Co-existance, and Co-creations, he probably was talking about humanity, and how we have created a new world. He talked about being really "pissed off" because he watched people "transcend" in a lecture one day, and he realized that his desire to get the feeling made it impossible for him, a buddhist philosophy. He called it "reaching Enlightenment" I mentioned a life-changing film I saw called "Waking Life", and he abruptly told me that he had seen it and it was amazing, and that it applied to all the stuff he had learned. He talked about monks, meditation, hindusim, buddhism and christianity similarities, Ant hills are human cities, There is no time to think in our modern world, no time to contemplate the meaning and purpose for one's life. He told me of an ancient "Chinese Curse", to be born in a BUSY time, like today. He had trouble in math at cornell. Read all of Herman Hesse's works, as I had mentioned two Hesse Books I had read Siddhartha, and Demian.It was really strange that he connected to me like that. I think that these experiences have given me a passion to learn more.College might be a good way for me to go further, and I need to read my bible. Thanks alot.

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empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

Fascinating! Keep studying. add by edit:
I would like to chat with you and Chris one of these days. The chat feature is a very good thing. It allows for spontaneous flow of either wisdom or humor...depending on the mood. Current events can be discussed. Philosophy...you name it.This message has been edited by Phat, 10-04-2005 09:01 AM

I was going to say something, but have decided against it other than to say to be careful about falling into the trap of believing you must think as you are learning. Epistemology in specific has, to my mind, run a bit off course and so overcomplicated what is the most practical field outside of logic within philosophy.Not that it has no value. You should study it, but keep a skeptical eye on how they tell you you should think about it. Justification rules were the huge thing when I was studying, but I made a bit of a splash with my prof by writing against their overuse. I hear there is now a movement within the field saying the same thing.Since you seem more religiously inclined you could go into theology or perhaps more interesting than that would be religious studies. That is like theology but without the angle that you must believe (in a specific version). It forces you to be objective and get at what is really being said within many different religions. In a way it is a bit like the psychology and sociology of religion, with the bonus of actually looking at the tenets of the faiths.Success!

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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1) Could it be that you are reacting to their their confidence in debate? Those with less skill often view those with greater skills as being snobbish and arrogant.

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No, because I never debated with them. In the case of two of them (they were classmates and friends), I was one of their supervisors and trainers at our workplace.They were Philosophy undergrads working part time jobs in my section, and they were not the best hires (I was not a part of the hiring process at that time, so I was just stuck dealing with them).They quite clearly had little commitment to doing their best and were rather put out once they realized that we really did have high expectations of everyone who worked there.

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2) Were they usually right, regardless of their being pompous? Those who lose debates often view winners as being snobbish and arrogant.

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They were often wrong, actually, about the information and skills they were expected to be learning and performing. They were reluctant to take direction and correction, and sometimes showed open disdain for the work those of us who chose to work in our field as full time professionals.

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3) What majors don't have a significant characteristic which mark their students as annoying in some way?

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Irrelevant. We're talking about philosophy students now.

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4) Could it be that what may seem to be the traits you claim, be that after enough debate with people that analogously cannot add 2+2 (and feel proud of that fact), are reasonably a bit put off and frustrated with most conversations?

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My, my, you have made so many assumptions!There was very little "debate" with these jokers, holmes, except when they were trying to negotiate to get longer breaks, time off, explaining why they were just rude to a customer, etc.. Just a lot of them refusing to listen or take direction and generally projecting the attitude that they were both far better than the job they had or the people they worked with and that we should all feel so fortunate and honored that such highly intelligent people consented to accept the position.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-04-2005 10:37 AM

Sounds like you simply had some asshole college students in general. If that was their actual behavior all the time I'm not sure how they made it through Phil with that kind of attitude and discipline, unless the department was a sham.Or maybe they were even bad Phil students? Do you know how well they did?This seems like really bad anecdotal evidence for marking Phil students in general for derision, though obviously you did have a bad experience with some. Actually it is relevant. Whether you had phil students who had bad traits doesn't mean much if there are other kinds of students with the problems as well.As far as I can tell every field has some losers, and all people that are opinionated will be that way regardless of education. It comes more from other experiences.Frankly they sound like typical college students who don't want to work a real job. I ran into that a lot when I was working my way through college and a bit after that. Business and science majors were the worst as far as I could tell, as they felt they should be somewhere else, but they weren't really that much different than any other field, just a little.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Its you. This thread is directed at one student in particular, however. Charlie.Occasionally, we all get pompous and arrogant. Believers and non-believers alike. More good advice from Holmes. Charlie, I have watched you and your brother grow more logical, analytical, and patient in the past year.Schrafinator has a point in regards to human nature. She has seen the worst of philosophy students, but I think that we could infer that she sees the same thing in fundamentalists.Personally, you and I have to walk that tightrope between human educational wisdom, acceptance of other points of view, and at the same time holding on to our beliefs and interpretations of what being a Christian means in the modern world. (Even if you decided NOT to be a Christian, I would still consider you as a younger brother!) I was quite impressed with your choice of classes for this semester! Each discipline has differing approaches to human wisdom. EvC forum is one place to glean information! BTW what is new in American History? Are you seeing the nation in a whole new way? Tell us more about what you are studying, if you have the time. You have at least another year to decide which college to go to. Maybe you can get scholarships if you keep up your grades! That would help fo sho! Its not just the knowledge that you need. It is the characters behind the knowledge!Allow me to quote Jesus: Jesus talks of words and not just The Word. The Bible is just a book. As Jar likes to say, it is the map but NOT the territory. Did you read this link which I gave you earlier?A couple of years ago, I never would have read that link. I was a fundamentalist and was close minded to any human derived wisdom not from the Bible. I never would have listened to a theistic evolutionist. I also believed that philosophy was a godless attempt at human understanding!I too have grown in the last year! I am still a creationist in the sense that I believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth. HOW He did it, however, remains unresolved in my mind.
Perhaps I realize that it does not really matter. Right. Do you see me as one of those dwellers? (Or am I just full of hot air!)Even people who quote scripture often do not understand who they are quoting or what it means. So you declared that America was Mystery Babylon the Great yet YOU were one of those chosen ones that was different? LOL. I was like that too. Until I really looked at the obvious scriptures. What does this verse mean? Does it mean that all have sinned? I think so. Does it mean that we need only study the Bible? I think not. That is what I used to do to the science minded people. Try and make them look ignorant. What frustrated me, however, was that it was I who was ignorant. I think that what Jesus mean't when he used the plural form of word (words) was that He spoke human wisdom and He spoke as God. He was the ONLY human who could and can do so. Too many church folk claim to be speaking the word of God but it is the word of man. It is ALWAYS good to get closer to God. I think, however, that the more we really know, the more He draws closer to us! I think that you are really saying that you are ready for more than that simple advice. That is why I am taking the time to express myself to you. Am I being helpful?This message has been edited by Phat, 10-04-2005 11:33 AM

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences here, schrafinator. The three philosophy students I have known were completely cool. In fact, they would be the ones to make the "work at McDonald's" jokes.

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Sounds like you simply had some asshole college students in general. If that was their actual behavior all the time I'm not sure how they made it through Phil with that kind of attitude and discipline, unless the department was a sham.

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Or maybe they were even bad Phil students? Do you know how well they did?

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This seems like really bad anecdotal evidence for marking Phil students in general for derision, though obviously you did have a bad experience with some.

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The thing is, the company I work for employs many, many college students who are studying many different things, so I have worked with many dozens of kids over the past 7 years, and these two kids were certainly the worst. I've also known a Psychology graduate student who's undergrad degree was Philosophy, and he was a pretty arrogant asshole, too.Of course they could have easily just been assholes first and Philosophy students second. Like I said, the descision to hire them was not mine, and it wasn't a good descision.Can't you see, though, how arrogant assholes might be drawn to Philosophy? "Deep thoughts" and profound revelations and all that?

Oh, I'm sure there are cool Philosophy undergrads.I just haven't met any yet.

Lets focus on Charlie! This message has been edited by Phat, 10-04-2005 02:43 PM

Yes and no. I could see them being drawn into it at first.But if they think they have such profound thoughts everyone ought to listen to them, they will end up frustrated and failing their courses by the end. You have to be able to stop your own chatter in order to correctly dissect another person's position, as well as try and figure out where they might be going with any challenges.It seems to me a person who thinks they are Gods gift to the world will choose easy subjects which do not force them to question their own position on a regular basis.But like I said, every field had assholes as far as I could tell. Business had quite a few, science less so but when it came to working real jobs (outside the field) they could be just as arrogant about it.I'm not disputing you had the experience, just perhaps the lesson you should be drawing from it. A relative of mine used to live in a poor area and was beaten by blacks all the time because he was poor and white. Would it have been reasonable for him to come away with an idea that all blacks are ignorant and violent predators?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

In general I could make a joke like that, and certainly did during my education. After graduation though was a recession and I ended up being someone with a good job after all. Many of the people who used to laugh at me were coming to me for work and they had to be sent on to McDs.Heck I knew an astronomy/astrophysics graduate in McDs.It seems to me education has very little to do with where you actually end up and whether you can get a job. Drive and networking seem to be the top two important qualifications... outside of luck of course.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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1 Cor 1:20-22-- Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

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Evolution is wisdom of the world.

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Titus 2:12 - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

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empathy is non-existant as we reign terror on others

What is your theory of origins so far? Discuss your beliefs concerning YEC, I.D. and evolution. Explain why you believe or question each of these disciplines. Use knowledge that you have gained from both the world and your spirit. No conclusion need be drawn at this time.This message has been edited by Phat, 10-04-2005 04:43 PM