An unforgivable crime?

Again, I really feel that we have gotten off the wrong foot somewhere, crashfrog. You are an experienced debater, and I am not. I'm probably digging a bigger hole for myself, but here goes.crashfrog writes

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I think you've made an enormous error in suggesting that the data you've underlined (or any of the rest of it) supports your contention that "sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism". Unless you mean to suggest, in an unclear way, that sex offenders in the United States system have a higher recidivism rate than sex offenders in other countries. It's certainly the case that such rates are higher for such persons in the US compared to the UK or Canada, but I'm not aware that the numbers indicate that the US is the highest worldwide.

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In no way have I suggested that I was speaking about the entire world. I believe I said

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While I cannot say anything about the British legal system, I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism, especially when their crimes involve children.

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Taking this sentence apart, I'd intepret that "while I cannot say anything about the British legal system" to mean that I do not know enough about the British legal system or what the statistics are for Britain for me to comment. The next part of the sentence "I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism" I'd interpret as me speaking as an American who knows at least a detail or two about the legal system in the United States can say that the recidivism rate in sex offenders tend to be higher than all other crimes.Nowhere in that sentence have I intentionally indicated that I was talking about the world. If my sentence indeed gave you that impression, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.crashfrog writes

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Certainly the contention that, within the US, sex offenders have even a high recidivisim rate is not supported by the Bureau of Justice or any other source.

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You question the Bureau's claim of the high rate of recidivism in sex offenders in this country, and that is your right.For now, I can neither deny your sources nor confirm them. At a later time, I will look more into it!Edited by rgb, : fixed quote box

I'm sorry if you got that impression. It certainly wasn't my intent to get all contentious with you. I think that your statement isn't supported by the facts as I understand them; I definately don't think you're a bad debater or a bad person. I apologize if I came off as getting personal. That's much clearer, thank you. Again, it wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth; I was simply seeking alternate interpretations of your statement that seemed more supportable. On the principle that it's more charitable to assume my opponent misspoke, or I misread, rather than assume he's outright wrong. Take your time. I look forward to your response.

Yes, some people are able to fool the parole system. I'm not a fool thinking otherwise. I'd imagine it would be much harder for some young adults to fool a panel of experts over a period of years than it is for a school kid to fool a bunch of other school kids and some teachers that you think a certain way. So, in your opinion, we should keep children that commit serious crimes, in prison for their entire adult lives? I don't, and the relevant professionals agree.

If the people that committed this crime were 18 when they did it, I'd agree that 8 years was not enough. Since that is very much not the case, I don't.

Modulous writes

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I'd imagine it would be much harder for some young adults to fool a panel of experts over a period of years than it is for a school kid to fool a bunch of other school kids and some teachers that you think a certain way.

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Modulous, as a matter of fact the opposite is more likely to be true. Pretending to be something you are not can be very draining and tiring, especially if you have to do it for an extended amount of time. With a student-student relationship, the interactions last for half a day everyday for years, not to mention all the extracurricular activities that the students might be together with. On the other hand, these panels of experts aren't there to watch the individuals in question anywhere near as long as what you would see in a student-student interaction time. They mostly get their impressions from reports by evaluators, who only show up every once in a while to watch a good show, grades of the individuals in question (which tells you nothing about their sociopathic tendencies), and face to face impression of the individuals every once in a while (again, they showed up to give a good show).I'm not saying that I know for sure of what the boys in question have become. What I'm trying to say is that to have done what they have at the age of 10 requires a very warped sense of what is right and wrong or, worse, knowing what is right and wrong but does not care.

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So, in your opinion, we should keep children that commit serious crimes, in prison for their entire adult lives? I don't, and the relevant professionals agree.

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It really depends. I am not a legal expert so I cannot say I can speak authoritively on the matter. I am only expressing my uncomfortness with the case we are discussing.

are you suggesting that a 10 year old's ability to understand the consequences of abducting a toddler, kicking him, hitting him with bricks, stones and a 22 lb (10 kg) iron bar is somehow less developed than a 18 year old's ??

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

If he's not, I will. Yes, a 10-year-old's ability to understand the consequences of those actions is significantly less developed than an 18-year-old's. And even if it weren't, a 10-year-old's ability to control his impulses and make decisions definately is "somehow" less developed than an 18-year-old's.I mean, that's the definition of "being a child." What, you're telling me you never did anything boneheadedly stupid as a child? You never acted without thought of the consequences?How do you think people learn to consider the consequences of their actions in the first place?

Yes, I am suggesting precisely that. These 10 year olds had no problem understanding that it was wrong (I believe that was even established in court), but understanding the full and total ramifications of their actions? No, I don't think they did. Also - I don't think two abused 10 year olds were all that skilled in combating the peer pressure side of the crime.Of course - if you think you have a case for trying and punishing preteens as adults, I'll gladly hear it.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Well, the board themselves included a judge and a psychiatrist, they would have examined written evidence from their psyciatrisits and the staff at the facility they were held at. It would have included the reports of their psychological tests, their education, their interaction with others, etc etc.I've never had to do that before but I imagine that keeping the truth from the daily scrutiny of the people they came into contact with at the facility so that they will write glowing reports for the parole board would be a lot more difficult than pretending not to be racist for six hours a day/five days a week.I'd imagine that inconsistencies would be evident. Both these boys would have to be quite brilliant to pull this off - and given the fact that they kept wearing blood spattered shoes and paint stained coats after the crime - something tells me that they aren't all that smart. Indeed - it is uncomforting to discuss it. I'd prefer to trust the criminologists and legal experts on this one, the scenario is far too emotive for the likes of us to evaluate it objectively.

You think spending your entire adolescence in prison is a slap on the wrist?You think spending the rest of your life under observation is a slap on the wrist?You think living under a fake identity, loosing all your former life and always living in fear that you'll be found out and kicked to death by a bunch of vigilantes is a slap on the wrist?Just never give me a playful smack round the head, ok?

I don't know how you reach that conclusion but based on personal experience, both my own and every other 10 year old's I've ever known the consequences of such actions are pretty well understood well before that age.Do you know many 10-year olds who will willingly hit themselves with a 10kg iron bar ? I don't think so, as they are fully aware of the consequences of this action.I bet good money that these two wouldn't hit themselves with a 10kg iron bar but they didn't hesitate to do the same to a 3-yr old toddler they abducted.remember, we're not talking fraud or insider trading here, we're talking about rudimentary and sustained physical violence. There wasn't a momentary impulse or single decision involved in this case. It was a series of planned, repeated and sustained actions.They even tried to destroy the evidence afterwards, which shows they were fully aware of what they've done. This is the definition of being a child ?? yes, but never this! so...the only way to learn the consequences of hitting and kicking and striking someone with an iron bar is to go out and do it ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

please see my reply to Crashfrog below as he raised the same points as you did.

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Also - I don't think two abused 10 year olds were all that skilled in combating the peer pressure side of the crime.

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I agree with that but I don't think it should be a mitigating factor in any case.

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Of course - if you think you have a case for trying and punishing preteens as adults, I'll gladly hear it.

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I'm not making a case for trying and punishing preteens as adults, I'm making a case for moving away from self-righteous moral absolutes and the culture of absolving responsibility that permeates our justice system.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

From what I saw, you only discussed the 10 year old knowing the immediate consequences of their actions (an iron bar hitting a head), not all of the consequences, not the full depth of them, not in the way an adult knows them. So you think that we should consider preteens as fully responsible as adults are?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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From what I saw, you only discussed the 10 year old knowing the immediate consequences of their actions (an iron bar hitting a head), not all of the consequences, not the full depth of them, not in the way an adult knows them.

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IMO, the only difference netween the 10 yr old doing what they did and an adult doing the same thing is that the adult would possibly think ahead in terms of the police investigation, trial and legal aspects, possibly try to make up an allibi, etc.As far as the immediate consequences of repeatedly hitting and kicking someone until they were dead I think that these kids knew exactly what they were doing in a way that any adult would.They showed pre-meditation, callousness and a sadistic streak. The rest is just refusal to get off our self-righteous high-horse and see things for what they are: there are 10-yr olds out there who consciously enjoy inflicting pain and suffering to others.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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You think spending your entire adolescence in prison is a slap on the wrist?
You think spending the rest of your life under observation is a slap on the wrist?
You think living under a fake identity, loosing all your former life and always living in fear that you'll be found out and kicked to death by a bunch of vigilantes is a slap on the wrist?

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compared to what they did damn right it is!At least they have a chance to live and enjoy the best part of their lives.It's the same chance they've consciously and intentionally taken away from James and his family.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."