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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
Rahvin
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Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 41 of 240 (405073)
06-11-2007 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by taylor_31
06-10-2007 11:24 PM


"Unenviable" does not even begin to describe your position, and you have my sympathies.
I can't speak from any sort of experience, as I'm not gay, and the closest "coming out" I could have regards my de-conversion from Christianity to Atheism - something I have not, in fact, come out to my parents regarding for fear of a similar reaction to that you have received. This, of course, in spite of the fact that I am financially independent of my parents and live 3000 miles away.
I think Crashfrog's advice is the correct path, particularly in light of your parents' new plan to force you to quit your job and take another, while isolating you from a friend. Taylor, at 18, you ARE and adult, whether your parents choose to see you as one or not. They have neither the right nor the ability to force you to do ANYTHING, whatsoever, at this point in your life. All they can do is withdraw their financial support - which is why I would strongly suggest NOT quitting your job, and trying to find a new place to live. The very last thing you need right now is to have precious years of your life wasted as your parents jerk you around trying to force you into matching their preconceived ideal son. You are yourself, it's not changing, and quite honestly everyone needs to either deal with you as you are or fuck off. I would suggest the exact opposite of what your parents intend: seek out other members of the gay community, hopefully locally, but if not then over the internet. Whatever steps you take next, you're going to need some support, and a way to avoid the isolation your parents are going to try to force on you.
I see that you live in Oklahoma. Unfortunately, I would expect similarly "warm" responses to your sexual orientation so long as you remain in the Bible Belt. Really, it won't change entirely no matter where you go, as nowhere is safe from bigotry, but you live right in the heart of one of the most homophobic regions in the country.
Just try to remember, Taylor, that you are not evil, you are not an outcast everywhere, you are not alone, and that your parents attempts to change who you are, however well-intentioned, are wrong.
And for the love of god, don't let them put you in any of those "gay cure" camps - they don't work, they're filled with literal brainwashing, and cause psychological repression that can cast a shadow over the rest of your life.
Good luck Taylor.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by taylor_31, posted 06-10-2007 11:24 PM taylor_31 has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 87 of 240 (405634)
06-14-2007 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
06-13-2007 11:57 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
Hi Taylor. Welcome to EvC. Without resorting to hate speech on homosexuality I want to list a few facts for you to consider.
And yet you've replaced the hate speach with twisted logic, bigotry, ignorance, and outright lies.
Good job there, Buzz.
1. Clearly the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament teaches that any deviant form of sex is sinful, restricting sexual activity strictly between a husband and a wife.
True. A literal interpretation of the Bible does, in fact, mean that homosexuality, and basically everything else right up to masturbation are evil. And Numbers 31: 1-54, then the Isrealites kill all the males and non-virgin females of their enemy, and take the virgins for themselves. Then rape was fine. Or when Lot offered his daughters up to the lusts of the citizenry of Sodom so that the angels visiting him wouldn't have to deal with their "lusts." Or, later, when Lot had sex with his daughters.
Hrm. The Bible seems to be a bit mixed up with its sexual morality. Apparently you can rape all you want as long as you marry the girl after killing all of the men in her city, and sex with both of your daughters is fine as long as you're really drunk. Mind you, the Lot story happened immediately after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, for homosexuality. Lot and his family were the "righteous" ones. Guess pretty much everything goes as long as you aren't gay.
2. Homosexuality is not natural. Whether mankind evolved or whether we were created by God, the natural physiology of our bodies is designed for male and female sex union, both pertaining to the animals and to humans. It's also in the insect world.
False. Homosexuality has been observed in many species, in their natural environments and in the laboratory. Other primates like baboons, that I know of off the top of my head, as well as simple fruit flies have been observed engaging in homosexual activity. Since it happens in the natural world, it is clearly natural.
3. What's normal pertaining to our bodies is best.
It's not "natural" or "normal" to go to a doctor, have surgery, brush your teeth, drive a car, or a multitude of other common practices you wouldn;t call "sinful." Besides, "normal" is entirely subjective.
4. What is abnormal is naturally rejected, unacceptable and repulsive to the majority of society, so don't be surprised that your family and school et al are upset about this announcement. Until recent years, nearly all cultures in history rejected this abnormal lifestyle.
This is exactly the same argument used to bar interracial marriages until recently. It;s a completely bigoted statement with no basis other than an appeal to the majority. And homosexuality is NOT a "lifestyle." It's a gender attraction, nothing more, nothing less.
5. This lifestyle has been unlawful in many cultures and nations throughout history.
So has interracial marriage. Hell, in "many cultures," it's unlawful for women to show their faces without a man present. This is an appeal to tradition, and is also horseshit.
6. Sex outside of marriage has a history of initiating health problems.
Also bullshit. Married couples can share STDs just as easily as unmarried couples. If you refer to couples who have never had sex with anyone else...well, that applies to gay people, too. Monogomy DOES help prevent the spread simply by shear numbers, but neither being heterosexual nor wearing a ring create some sort of exclusive club with regard to STD immunity. A gay couple who stays monogomous or - gasp - gets MARRIED, would have the same protection.
7. Inhibitions pertaining to abnormality are good and necessary for society. We all must exercise them to some extent. Bad things like rape, murder, unwanted pregnancy, venerial disease et al happen when folks have no inhibitions.
So...gay sex is not on the level of rape and murder. Once again, this is another argument that was once used against interracial marriage. We call people who use these arguments "bigots."
8. Parents are generally more experienced, wiser and more knowledgeable than children. They generally love their children and advocate what's really best for them. My advice is to honor, love and obey them so long as you are under their roof with a good attitude towards these who've worked hard to feed you, provide your home, take care of you and protect you all your life.
And yet parents can also be wrong, especially when they've been fed bigoted ideas about homosexuality for their entire lives, many of which are simply not true.
9. The Bible is a reliable source for morality, religion, fulfilled prophecy, social guidance and everything else pertaing to life. Nations and cultures which have historically followed it's principles have been the most blessed, free and prosperous nations of the world so my advice is to hold to it and it's principles if you want a good life.
Actually...the US, being the nation with the highest Christian population in the world, also has the highest per capita violence (including rape and murder), the highest per capita infant mortality rates, the highest number of abortions, no national healthcare, and severe poverty issues. Some of the LEAST religious nations on Earth (mostly the Scandinavian nations, as I recall) have the LOWEST levels of violence, the lowest levels of infant mortality and abortions (despite abortion being completely legal and easy to obtain even for the poor), national healthcare for all citizens, and virtually no poverty. Other nations, like Japan, are at least predominantly non-Christian, yet also have extremely low crime rates.
Not to mention all the rape, murder, religious tolerance, and genocide in the Bible. Yep. Great moral guide.
10. Some are suggesting that all the female hormones given to cows and other animals which provide our food supply are a factor in the present phenomenon of increased homosexuality. I'm not able to verify anything on this but perhaps there's something to it. We purposfully avoid these products going with natural when we can.
Riiiiight.
11. I personally know a young man who had similar feelings as you. He was a Christian and asked me what God thought about homosexuality. I showed him where Biblically it was a sinful practice and that God abhored it to the point of destroying cities in which it was rampant and including it in the death penalty for Jews under the Mosaic Levitical Law et al.
He never mentioned it again to me but went on to marry a fine woman and raise a family. His urge left him. This happens often and it is not impossible to go natural regardless of one's urges.
Good for your friend, if that was his choice. However, I've never heard of anyone outside of a "I have this friend" story, ever really switch gender attraction. I have, however, heard of many, many homosexuals who repressed their urges, were married, and had kids to
fit in," and wound up either total basket cases or at the least ruined their families when they finally revealed that their entire married lives had been a repressed lie.
Modern psychologists do not view homosexuality as any form of disorder whatsoever, and instead recommend against the sort of brainwashing and extreme repression and suppression techniques utilized in the various religious "gay cure" camps.
The above is for your consideration so as to hopefully help you understand why this is so problematic with your friends and family and why your first inhibitions and guilt feelings were likely for your good. What is abnormal would naturally likely cause one to have this first reaction. That's for a purpose, to keep your lifestyle normal and natural as you are made to be as per the physiology of your body sex wise.
The above is to point out where Buzz, here, is either talking out his ass or just a simple bigot. We're all allowed to believe as we choose, of course, and if you decide that Christianity is still for you and it requires you to suppress your homosexual urges, well, good luck to you.
Just don't pay attention to lies and bigotry when deciding what's best for yourself. The bigots, like Buzz here, may well have what they think are your best interests at heart, and I'd even go so far as to applaud even his intentions, but their beliefs and opinions really don't have much basis in reality. They're only relevant if you have the same strict literalist faith they have.
Good luck, Taylor.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 06-13-2007 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Modulous, posted 06-14-2007 5:14 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 105 of 240 (405757)
06-14-2007 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Modulous
06-14-2007 5:14 PM


Re: an asside on the character of the US
My apologies, and thanks for the corrections. I was working from memory of an old discussion from months ago - conceeded unless I somehow find my original source.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Modulous, posted 06-14-2007 5:14 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 204 of 240 (406463)
06-20-2007 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by riVeRraT
06-20-2007 8:23 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
At one point in time, I could look at lesbian's and be turned on (if they were good looking) but now the reality of it is that those women,(true lesbians) usually hate men, and have no interest in me, or any other guy, which is a turn-off to me. Or they are experimenting women, who are not interested in monogamy, another turn-off.
So...not only are lesbians either man-hating femi-nazis, or complete sluts, your approval or disapproval is directly tied to your own sexual arousal.
Nice, Rat.
Sex is great, but true love is better.
And somehow true love is impossible if you're gay? I'm pretty sure being in a loving, monogamous relationship was why many gays want to get married in the first place.
And stop with the "hate the sin, love the sinner" bullshit, because that's exactly what it is. If you honestly believe that a basic characteristic of a person like sexual orientation is evil, and will send them to Hell, a sin just like murder and theft, then you hate them. It doesn't matter that you hate your own sin as well - having issues with yourself is irrelevant.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 8:23 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 10:22 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 211 of 240 (406538)
06-21-2007 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by riVeRraT
06-20-2007 10:22 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
My response was directly related to the question of whether looking at two women turn me on, which nator asked earlier.
So yes, it is directly related to my own sexual arousal.
My apologies if I misunderstood, Rat, but it looked to me like Nator was specifically pointing at the same subject - it appears, solely by your wording, that you disapprove of male homosexuality more than female, and your explanation seemed to directly link that with your sexual arousal.
Nator said:
nator writes:
Or maybe you don't get the "ick factor" about gay women like you do about gay men because you are sexually aroused by the straight male fantasy version of lesbians.
To which you replied:
riverrat writes:
At one point in time, I could look at lesbian's and be turned on (if they were good looking) but now the reality of it is that those women,(true lesbians) usually hate men, and have no interest in me, or any other guy, which is a turn-off to me. Or they are experimenting women, who are not interested in monogamy, another turn-off.
This seems to tell me that you aren't so anti-homosexuality if the act is sexually arousing to you. Again, if I misunderstand, my apologies - just the way it looks by your response.
That has nothing to do with what I said.
And if I misunderstood again, then again my apologies. Adding the comment "sex is great, but true love is better" to the end of a comment where you called lesbians either man-hating femi-nazis or just "experimenting" and therefore not really lesbians really seemed to be a comment on homosexual relationships.
I never claimed that gays don't love each other. They must because they want to get married, and I support that.
I can only respond to what I see you post Rat, and I have to say, it really, really looked like that was exactly what you were saying. If I misunderstood...well, you get the picture.
However, much as I may dislike some of your takes on the issue (or at least my understanding of your feelings, as you seem to feel we're having a miscommunication), I applaud your support of gay marriage. It's certainly the mature position.
You fucking moron, please point out where I said that.
I sin, and I ain't going to hel;l, why would a gay person.
Lets not drag this into a flamewar, shall we? I don't feel like a suspension today.
And you've said many times that you believe homosexuality to be a sin. Sin, by definition, sends one to Hell without belief and absolution in Christ, according to Christian dogma. Therefore you are, in fact, saying that the act of homosexual sex is evil and will send homosexuals to Hell. The fact that they would be subject to the same absolution and forgiveness is irrelevant - you still place it as "sin," in the same bucket as murder, theft, and adultery. Wile certainly tamer (and far more sane) than saying "fags burn in Hell," it's still a form of gay-bashing and bigotry - even if it IS founded on Biblical principles. The concept of "hate the sin and not the sinner," when the "sin" in question is part of a person's basic personality (ie, gender orientation), is contradictory, as has been stated before.
You can't be "pro-gay" and then tell them you don't approve of them having sex.
Just fucking amazing.
I swear, I am the only one in the world who doesn't get it.
I fixed it for you.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 10:22 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2007 8:16 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 218 of 240 (406609)
06-21-2007 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 12:24 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
Sen. John Kerry says that he is personally against abortion, but believes that the choice should remain personal to the woman.
Does that mean that Kerry is against abortion?
Yes, yes it does mean that Kerry is against abortion. He even says that he is personally against abortion. Not complicated.
Like Rat, he has made the mature observation that it would be wrong for him to force that view on other people - thus, Kerry supports a woman's right to choose even if he doesn't like it, and Rat supports gay marriage even if he views homosexuality as a sin.
The issue here, however, is that sexual orientation is a basic trait of a person, much like their race or eye color. The point is that the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mantra is self-contradictory if the sin, as in this case, is part of the person's very existence.
If we are going by your rationale, then Kerry is no different from Rat here.
With the exception of that last point, this is entirely true, and I applaud both of them for trying to separate their personal opinions and bias from what they believe should be forced onto others through legislation.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 12:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 5:03 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 224 of 240 (406655)
06-21-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 5:03 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
Then take it up with Nator.
Take what up with Nator? What are you talking about?
I wonder, though, if you'd have the same outlook when it comes to murder.
"I'm personaly against murder, but damn it, we shouldn't stop people from doing it if they want to!"
Murder causes objective harm to another. Murder is not a basic property of a person like eye color or sexual orientation or race. This is a strawman. Homosexuality is a basic trait, part of what defines an individual, and it causes no objective harm to anyone on its own. The "hate the sin, not the sinner" dogma is perfectly fine in the case of actions like murder or theft. It only becomes self-contradictory when the "sin" is part of what makes the "sinner" who they are - like race or sexual orientation.
Then what's the problem you have with Rat?
My only issue is the "hate the sin, not the sinner" attitude with regards to homosexuality. Rat claims to not be prejudiced against gays, yet believes homosexual sex is a sin. This is a contradiction in terms, though I, again, applaud his ability to seperate his own bias from what should be forced on others through legislation in his support of gay marriage.
Please substantiate your claim?
No one chooses to be gay or straight. At no point in your life did you wake up and say "I think I'm going to find women attractive, and not men, from now on." It may not be strictly genetic (the research Ive seen points to a wide variety of factors, most significantly hormone balances in the womb), but it is certainly not a choice. This means it's a basic attribute of personhood.
Obviously, those that oppose it believe that it isn't an inherit disposition. No one could be blamed for the color of their skin. But people do choose whom they sleep with.
But not who to be attracted to. And suggesting that homosexuals simply never have sex, or force themselves into heterosexual relationships (which tends to cause all manner of psychological issues and problems for the resulting family when the truth comes out) is patently ridiculous. Homosexuality harms no one, and those who believe it is a sin can make that choice for themselves, not anyone else.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 5:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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