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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 63 of 240 (405418)
06-12-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


quote:
Okay, I don't know if this is a relevant topic for EvC, and I should probably keep it to myself; but I respect the members here, and I need some impartial advice at the moment
EvC is the place to come to if your looking for partial advice - the advice (however well meaning) will be liberally flavoured generally. Fine if your taking a liberal slant and want liberal support. Not so fine if your looking for impartial advice.
quote:
I've been sexually aroused by males since I was in second grade, but I've always repressed it; I tried to make myself like girls. I never had a girlfriend, but I did become attracted to "normal" pornography for a time, and I thought I'd finally beaten my desires. This all changed when one of my best friends came out to me.
You can pick this up wrong if you like or you can pick it up as intended.
If you had become sexually aroused by animals in second grade and repressed it and tried to make yourself like girls..etc. Then what? Would you be on this site looking for impartial advice? That you surely wouldn't re:animals but do re: gay underlines acceptance of an agenda, to whit: that gay is fine in principle (whatever the local issues). Whether it is or isn't isn't the question. The question is are you trying to solve a problem you have by coming out. Or trying to solve a problem you have by applying the wrong solution?
Let me take a wild guess that you didn't repress it at all like you say. Let me take a wild guess that you entertained, fantasized, masturbated about it but kept a lid on it relative to what you would have done had the object being female. Let me guess you have had guilt and shame dog you the whole while (hardly a guess given that you sound like you live in some super-Religious environment). Not that guilt and shame will have prevented you from engaging in "gay" behaviour all on your own. Correct me if I'm off base here.
So we have a person faced with the single issue of sexual arousal, engaging in it, feeling shame about it, drawn to it, resisting it, engaging in it, shamed by it. The cycle sets up and similar to an addicitive cycle the fantasies etc. have to ramp up in order to repeat the thrill. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The kick for a gambler is not the win but the crushing loss. The moment when the numbers fall the wrong way. The hook for yourself -the guilt and shame? Why not? The kick for a cigarette smoker is the nicotine which salves the pangs caused by the body removing nicotine delivered from the previous cigarette which was delivered from the previous cigarette which was delivered....by the first cigarette he introduced into his body.
Maybe you're gay (if there is such a thing). Maybe you're just hooked into a habitual cycle. Impartial advice? I'd check out a couple of options before I branded myself as anything. Especially something as significant and life-charting as this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by taylor_31, posted 06-13-2007 12:45 AM iano has replied
 Message 79 by nator, posted 06-13-2007 6:54 PM iano has not replied
 Message 116 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2007 10:08 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 73 of 240 (405505)
06-13-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by taylor_31
06-13-2007 12:45 AM


taylor31 writes:
Of course, I did accept the "agenda" of homosexuality before I accepted it in myself. After looking at the issue for several months, I decided that there was nothing morally wrong with it.
You acceptance of it as an 'agenda' occurred in this way thus...
Only after the past year, when I began to doubt the validity of theism and Christianity, did the shame begin to fade.
It appears that up to that point, you considered it morally wrong (due to your religious background I'd gather) and by resolving it in manner you did (dumping your religion) you now have no problem with the agenda in principle - even if it brings with it a multitude of problems and problems loom in the future.
I repressed it - meaning no "entertaining, fantasizing, or masturbation" - for many years, until I finally began to indulge about two years ago. Indeed, I was tortured with guilt, and I would always beg for forgiveness for my sins.
I don't understand. If repressed and not entertained then what was there to feel guilty about? What sin had been committed if it has been repressed like you say? There is no sin in temptation - only what you do with that temptation - you'll have heard that no doubt.
There must have been some level of entertainment of your sexual attraction towards males. You struggled to keep a lid on it I'd warrant. But I find it hard to believe it was repressed (for all those years) in the total manner you suggest. Like, whether the object is a boy or a girl makes little odds - you were a teenage boy (you still are in fact) and teenage boys are nothing if not sexual creatures - that's as natural as the weather.
I think, however, that homosexuality is more taboo than "regular" sins. People generally accept normal sins, but gayness is always openly reviled, under threat of violence and isolation.
That's self-righteous Religion for you. Always more comfortable pointing the finger at another than at oneself.
Only after the past year, when I began to doubt the validity of theism and Christianity, did the shame begin to fade.
I'll grant you that after years of effort you would likely become exhausted by the struggle. Anyone trying to resist anything through willpower is going to either be miserable or cave in at some point. Something has to give somewhere.
I'll reiterate the point made about shame and guilt being intrinsic parts of the pleasure of entertaining 'illicit' thoughts - from the time you first entertained them (in whatever way you did). I say illicit because from your perspective then they were illicit. And its a well known fact that illicitness heightens the pleasurable aspects of things - in the arena of sexuality as well as many others - so there is an 'addiction-like' element to be considered in the shame and guilt like I have already said.
Biblically of course this is all grist to the mill. The purpose of God giving the law in the first place was to stimulate sin into acting. As soon as something is labelled "Thou shalt not" sin will be hopping up and down wanting to do precisely that. Sin is excited and stimulated by the illicit in a way it is not by the permissible. The more illicit the more exciting. And when sin does act, shame and guilt follow - which is what God expects to happen and wants to happen. Guilt and shame cause pain and pain tells us that something is amiss.
How would we know something is amiss with us (we are sinners) unless we suffered pain?
Indeed, I genuinely thought something was wrong with me, and I sincerely felt I was going to hell.
Biblically speaking there is something wrong with you. You're a sinner just like everyone else. That sinners sin is hardly surprising - least of all to God.
Honestly? It sounds to me more like your confused about God, what sexuality is and what your sexuality is, the place of shame, sin, temptation in Gods scheme of things.... and a whole raft more. No sin in that given you are a teen - but to take the massive step you are taking strikes me as hasty.
I'm certainly open to falling in love with a woman.
In practice you won't be if you decide to pigeonhole yourself at this juncture. Tell yourself that gay is what you are and you will find yourself charting that course and not the course that would make it likely that you fall in love with a woman. That you are sexually attracted to men is but one facet of your makeup at present. Sex might seem like a huge thing. But it is only one facet of all that is involved in a close personal relationship with another - and by no means the central aspect of such relationships.
Is this facet an acquired facet in your case? Perhaps. Sin attaching to you in this way as it does everyone in other ways? Perhaps. If so then you could be expected to feel shame - not that the purpose of shame is pointless.
Are you gay? If all you can say is that you are sexually attracted to men then the answer is not necessarily "yes!". Not by a long shot.
Rather than indulging in this process you've described, I fought tooth-and-nail to end it. This included many public "salvation" experiences, several public baptisms, dozens of desperate talks with my youth minister and pastor, and thousands of late-night prayers begging God to forgive me and to save my soul.
Can I give you a thumbnail sketch of biblical Christianity?
a) Man is a sinner. All sin is aimed at but one thing: man expressing his desire to remain independant and separate from God.
b) God loves man and wants man back where he intended for man: dependant upon God, operating within the boundaries that God sets for man.
c) Man is saved when God manages to convict a man of mans need for God. Totally convict and not before. Man needs to surrender totally to God. No half measures.
You didn't want God. You weren't surrendering to God. You just wanted the pain to go away. A natural enough thing to want perhaps but you could pray such prayers until the cows came home for all the immediate effect they would have. God wants you - he is not in the business of handing out aspirin to salve the pain of sin. Not when pain can be used to save you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by taylor_31, posted 06-13-2007 12:45 AM taylor_31 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by taylor_31, posted 06-13-2007 3:13 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 74 of 240 (405507)
06-13-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by subbie
06-13-2007 7:28 AM


subbie writes:
He seems to think that his advice is impartial.
God knows whatever gave you that idea. I've already said that you won't get impartial advice at EvC. EvC is a watering hole where just about every philosophy in the world comes to sup.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by subbie, posted 06-13-2007 7:28 AM subbie has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 240 (405971)
06-15-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jaderis
06-15-2007 1:19 PM


Re: Impartial advice
Jaderis writes:
No, but you applauded Iano, for his "well written reply to Taylor" (Message 63) in which Iano compared homosexual desires to bestial desires, which implies that you agree with his sentiment.
The point was that Taylor would be unlikely to arrive here seeking impartial advice were his sexual attrractions aimed in a bestial direction. The point had to do with what one considered peer-acceptable.
You're not saying there is anything untoward about bestial attraction are you (you fundi)??
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jaderis, posted 06-15-2007 1:19 PM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by molbiogirl, posted 06-15-2007 10:07 PM iano has not replied
 Message 161 by nator, posted 06-16-2007 7:58 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 155 of 240 (405975)
06-15-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Hyroglyphx
06-15-2007 2:52 PM


Re: Impartial advice
NJ writes:
No one is comparing homosexuals to proponents of beastiality. No one is saying that if you engage in homosexuality that you are the same as a pedophile, or a zoophile, or what have you. It's used to show that feelings do not encapsulate who (you) are. And, in fact, its a caveat against the foolishly naive notion of, "follow your heart, and you can't go wrong!"
That's about it. You reading this Taylor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2007 2:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 240 (406089)
06-16-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by nator
06-16-2007 7:58 PM


Re: Impartial advice
The word was 'untoward" not "spot the difference". Your not telling me that the inability of an animal to consent to sexual relations with a human renders a humans sexual attraction (expressed towards it)... untoward.
*tosses an 8oz burger on the BBQ*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by nator, posted 06-16-2007 7:58 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 06-17-2007 9:07 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 171 of 240 (406244)
06-18-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by nator
06-17-2007 9:07 AM


Re: Impartial advice
nator writes:
If you have a point, make it.
I already have. The point originally made was that: had someone a sexual attraction to x, (where attraction-to-x was peer-reprehensible) then they wouldn't be on here looking for impartial advice.
That you have decided the one attraction is being rendered (by me)eqivilent to the the other is reading what was not written. I wouldn't mind but I started out the point by saying this about it
You can pick this up wrong if you like or you can pick it up as intended.
...in an effort (failed in your case) to head troll-ees off at the pass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by nator, posted 06-17-2007 9:07 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 06-18-2007 7:54 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 174 of 240 (406247)
06-18-2007 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by nator
06-18-2007 7:54 AM


Re: Impartial advice
I wasn't comparing. I was picking an example extreme enough to make the "peer-reprehensible" point. How could I make the point without using something considered peer-reprehensible?
You have the wrong end of the stick Nator. The best thing to do is let it go. I repeat
You can pick this up wrong if you like or you can pick it up as intended.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 06-18-2007 7:54 AM nator has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 219 of 240 (406635)
06-21-2007 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by AdminNem
06-21-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Warning
[qs=RiverRat]Stop with your bullshit... You fucking moron.[/qz]
NJ writes:
Thank you for your cooperation.
In 'my day' that earned at least a week. You pandering to your own NJ??
*shakes head*
( )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by AdminNem, posted 06-21-2007 11:56 AM AdminNem has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by AdminNem, posted 06-21-2007 5:13 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 223 of 240 (406654)
06-21-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by AdminNem
06-21-2007 5:13 PM


Re: Warning
In-the-thick-of-it-then reasons? EvC being rendered Evc by the powers that be. It must be the most difficult thing on earth to try to maintain the balance and Percy has done an exceptional job in broad lines. But EvC became Evc for all that. Percy isn't God.
Other than that? You just move on. Schraf is Schraf, Larni is Larni, Phat is Phat. Faith is Faith (xxx). Ringo? Jar? Percy?
As much as iano is iano. Fresh fields is fun. But if it boils down to intellectualism then EvC is the best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by AdminNem, posted 06-21-2007 5:13 PM AdminNem has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by AdminNem, posted 06-21-2007 5:53 PM iano has not replied

  
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