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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 61 of 240 (405416)
06-12-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
06-12-2007 12:13 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
I haven't seen the movie, but do those things happen because of homosexuality?
Or because of closeted homosexuality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 06-12-2007 12:13 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Taz, posted 06-12-2007 8:16 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3282 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 62 of 240 (405417)
06-12-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by crashfrog
06-12-2007 7:37 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
Your question is the same as asking is there a difference between living with HIV and having AIDS? Most people don't know or care about the distinction between the two. To most people, homosexuality and closeted homosexuality are the same thing. They don't care if they're two different things or not.
You have to remember what the audience is like. People that have been advocates of gay rights walked away understanding that the characters' lives were made miserable by the intolerant society they lived in. People that have been opposed to gay rights walked away thinking that the movie has just proved their position all along.
It could be entirely possible that I am just speaking out of my paranoia. However, I really don't think Brokeback was a good choice for the first gay themed movie to ever hit the big screen. I can think of plenty of gay themed movies out there that had a much better message than Brokeback. For example, the 2003 movie The Trip was 10 times better than Brokeback and was truly made for both sides of the audience. Brokeback, on the other hand, was only made for people who are already gay tolerant.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2007 7:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 63 of 240 (405418)
06-12-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


quote:
Okay, I don't know if this is a relevant topic for EvC, and I should probably keep it to myself; but I respect the members here, and I need some impartial advice at the moment
EvC is the place to come to if your looking for partial advice - the advice (however well meaning) will be liberally flavoured generally. Fine if your taking a liberal slant and want liberal support. Not so fine if your looking for impartial advice.
quote:
I've been sexually aroused by males since I was in second grade, but I've always repressed it; I tried to make myself like girls. I never had a girlfriend, but I did become attracted to "normal" pornography for a time, and I thought I'd finally beaten my desires. This all changed when one of my best friends came out to me.
You can pick this up wrong if you like or you can pick it up as intended.
If you had become sexually aroused by animals in second grade and repressed it and tried to make yourself like girls..etc. Then what? Would you be on this site looking for impartial advice? That you surely wouldn't re:animals but do re: gay underlines acceptance of an agenda, to whit: that gay is fine in principle (whatever the local issues). Whether it is or isn't isn't the question. The question is are you trying to solve a problem you have by coming out. Or trying to solve a problem you have by applying the wrong solution?
Let me take a wild guess that you didn't repress it at all like you say. Let me take a wild guess that you entertained, fantasized, masturbated about it but kept a lid on it relative to what you would have done had the object being female. Let me guess you have had guilt and shame dog you the whole while (hardly a guess given that you sound like you live in some super-Religious environment). Not that guilt and shame will have prevented you from engaging in "gay" behaviour all on your own. Correct me if I'm off base here.
So we have a person faced with the single issue of sexual arousal, engaging in it, feeling shame about it, drawn to it, resisting it, engaging in it, shamed by it. The cycle sets up and similar to an addicitive cycle the fantasies etc. have to ramp up in order to repeat the thrill. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The kick for a gambler is not the win but the crushing loss. The moment when the numbers fall the wrong way. The hook for yourself -the guilt and shame? Why not? The kick for a cigarette smoker is the nicotine which salves the pangs caused by the body removing nicotine delivered from the previous cigarette which was delivered from the previous cigarette which was delivered....by the first cigarette he introduced into his body.
Maybe you're gay (if there is such a thing). Maybe you're just hooked into a habitual cycle. Impartial advice? I'd check out a couple of options before I branded myself as anything. Especially something as significant and life-charting as this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 64 of 240 (405422)
06-12-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taz
06-12-2007 8:16 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
People that have been opposed to gay rights walked away thinking that the movie has just proved their position all along.
I agree, but not in the way that you're thinking. Most of those people didn't go see the movie, after all, so what was confirmed for them was the idea that "Hollyweird" was openly cramming "tolerance for queers" down their throats.
I don't think most of the people you're talking about used the plot of the movie to confirm their biases; they used its existence. I'm just sayin'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taz, posted 06-12-2007 8:16 PM Taz has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2632 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 65 of 240 (405428)
06-12-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
06-12-2007 12:13 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
I still have reservations with the movie Brokeback Mountain. The first gay themed movie that ever made it to the big screen had to prove that the fundies have been right all along.
Well. I dunno.
I live in a bible belt state. When I went to the theater to see the movie, weeks after it had been here, the place was packed. I was stunned.
And the audience was moved. You could feel it in the air. The place crackled.
This, btw, is in direct contrast to the showing of The Last Temptation of Christ that I went to see in St. Louis. Not only were there protests outside the theater, there was a lynch mob vibe when the show let out.
Granted that was 20 years ago, but still.
And I think all the points you made about proving the fundies right could easily be made re: chick flicks too.
(In the interest of full disclosure, I have a BA in Womens Studies! I was a rompin stompin lil feminist in my day.)
And leading roles for women have always been, almost without exception, stereotypical. (Except for Kate Hepburn movies!) And chick flicks are the bottom of the barrel re: proving the fundies right.
But, hey. It's Hollywood. Whattayagonnado?
Personally, I think the whole Sundance type thing and the whole internets type thing is gonna lead to a redefinition of movies and TV. Someday. And the range of what is widely available (and sought after) will change dramatically.
There was a study done recently, in the last year or so, that tried to figure out "what makes a hit movie/song/etc.". I read about it in an article about the new software that predicts "what makes a hit movie/song/etc." ... I think in the NYT Sunday magazine. They conducted an online study of groups of people who were "in touch" and discussing songs or movies or whatnot. (An iTunes/facebook/myspace type setup) And none of the different groups, tho sorted to try and make all things equal with respect to age/income/taste/etc., none of the groups came up with the same hits.
Not only that, when the re jiggered the groups a bit, they couldn't even replicate the original results.
They thought this might mean that a "nothing" song/movie can take off for these odd, random follow-the-leader type reasons. An early adopter jumps on board and, whoops, a hit.
So. To make a very long story short, I think that a wider range of independent movies/shows/songs, plus giganto amorphous internets, equals a whole bunch of terrific stuff coming down the pipeline. And I think it's gonna move society in ways that are unpredictable (in a good way).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 06-12-2007 12:13 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Taz, posted 06-12-2007 10:09 PM molbiogirl has not replied
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3282 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 66 of 240 (405437)
06-12-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by molbiogirl
06-12-2007 9:03 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
First of all, is that you in the avatar?
I live in a bible belt state. When I went to the theater to see the movie, weeks after it had been here, the place was packed. I was stunned.
And the audience was moved. You could feel it in the air. The place crackled.
Perhaps you're right. However, all I know is just a few days after it came out I started seeing on CNN religious right wingers using the movie as proof for their position of the immorality of homosexuality. And since then, I've met and conversed with fundies that also tried to use the movie to their advantage. The thing is I suspected that they did not get that on their own but rather from their reverends. Just imagine that... whole congregations being preached about Brokeback being the proof they needed in their war against homosexuality.
This, btw, is in direct contrast to the showing of The Last Temptation of Christ that I went to see in St. Louis. Not only were there protests outside the theater, there was a lynch mob vibe when the show let out.
What I found surprising was that even the almighty catholic church (or at least its representatives) spoke out violently against the movie. I even remember a priest saying "... this is the ultimate exploitation... blah blah blah"
(In the interest of full disclosure, I have a BA in Womens Studies! I was a rompin stompin lil feminist in my day.)
Did you burn your bras too?
But, hey. It's Hollywood. Whattayagonnado?
Well, I guess the best I could do is tell as many people as I can to go rent the movie The Trip. It's 10 times better than Brokeback. There is no way in hell anyone can possibly use that movie to prove their bigotted ways. But most importantly, you will walk away after seeing The Trip knowing that there are just as many beautiful as well as ugly sides as so-called straight relationships. They could have easily replaced Alan (the main character) with Alice without having to change a single word in the script.
So. To make a very long story short, I think that a wider range of independent movies/shows/songs, plus giganto amorphous internets, equals a whole bunch of terrific stuff coming down the pipeline. And I think it's gonna move society in ways that are unpredictable (in a good way).
OMG, you're one of those people that actually enjoy reading and writing metaphorical bullshit stuff.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by molbiogirl, posted 06-12-2007 9:03 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 240 (405438)
06-12-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Taz
06-12-2007 10:09 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
However, all I know is just a few days after it came out I started seeing on CNN religious right wingers using the movie as proof for their position of the immorality of homosexuality.
In fairness, there were pundits claiming that March of the Penguins was evidence of creationism.
Seriously.
If something's popular, some whackjob'll hop up and try to capitalize on it.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Taz, posted 06-12-2007 10:09 PM Taz has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 68 of 240 (405440)
06-12-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by molbiogirl
06-12-2007 9:03 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
This, btw, is in direct contrast to the showing of The Last Temptation of Christ that I went to see in St. Louis. Not only were there protests outside the theater, there was a lynch mob vibe when the show let out.
Never did get around to seeing that, but I remember being accosted by some wing nut outside of Schnucks on South Grand who was trying to convince people to boycott a movie he hadn't even seen himself. He was predicting all kinds of awful consequences from watching it; turning people into different kinds of crazed felons, etc. When I expressed my lack of support for his mission and started walking away, he called after me, "I hope you don't end up living next door to them!" And I called back to him, "Better them than you."
BTW, I wonder if you might know my ex-wife. She used to spend a great deal of time hanging out at the Women's Center at UMSL during the late 80s through early 90s.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by molbiogirl, posted 06-12-2007 9:03 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by molbiogirl, posted 06-13-2007 12:11 AM subbie has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2632 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 69 of 240 (405453)
06-13-2007 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by subbie
06-12-2007 10:51 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
In the interest of even fuller disclosure, I'm bi. And I came roarin out in the 80s.
And I kinda hafta go with Dan on this one.
Tinky Winky's gay, March of the Penguins' gay ... the homosexual agenda knows no bounds.
(That's Laurie Anderson. Tho I am a performance artist!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by subbie, posted 06-12-2007 10:51 PM subbie has not replied

  
taylor_31
Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 86
From: Oklahoma!
Joined: 05-14-2007


Message 70 of 240 (405461)
06-13-2007 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by iano
06-12-2007 8:16 PM


If you had become sexually aroused by animals in second grade and repressed it and tried to make yourself like girls..etc. Then what? Would you be on this site looking for impartial advice? That you surely wouldn't re:animals but do re: gay underlines acceptance of an agenda, to whit: that gay is fine in principle (whatever the local issues).
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but I'll try to respond.
Of course, I did accept the "agenda" of homosexuality before I accepted it in myself. After looking at the issue for several months, I decided that there was nothing morally wrong with it.
The question is are you trying to solve a problem you have by coming out. Or trying to solve a problem you have by applying the wrong solution?
What other solution do you have? I'm not being sarcastic, but I'm genuinely curious.
Let me take a wild guess that you didn't repress it at all like you say. Let me take a wild guess that you entertained, fantasized, masturbated about it but kept a lid on it relative to what you would have done had the object being female. Let me guess you have had guilt and shame dog you the whole while
I repressed it - meaning no "entertaining, fantasizing, or masturbation" - for many years, until I finally began to indulge about two years ago. Indeed, I was tortured with guilt, and I would always beg for forgiveness for my sins. I think, however, that homosexuality is more taboo than "regular" sins. People generally accept normal sins, but gayness is always openly reviled, under threat of violence and isolation.
Only after the past year, when I began to doubt the validity of theism and Christianity, did the shame begin to fade.
So we have a person faced with the single issue of sexual arousal, engaging in it, feeling shame about it, drawn to it, resisting it, engaging in it, shamed by it. The cycle sets up and similar to an addicitive cycle the fantasies etc. have to ramp up in order to repeat the thrill.
Perhaps you're right; but I think you might be throwing around the word "shame" too lightly. Indeed, I genuinely thought something was wrong with me, and I sincerely felt I was going to hell.
Rather than indulging in this process you've described, I fought tooth-and-nail to end it. This included many public "salvation" experiences, several public baptisms, dozens of desperate talks with my youth minister and pastor, and thousands of late-night prayers begging God to forgive me and to save my soul.
I don't see why I would be addicted to that process of "shame". Did I misunderstand you?
Maybe you're gay (if there is such a thing). Maybe you're just hooked into a habitual cycle. Impartial advice? I'd check out a couple of options before I branded myself as anything. Especially something as significant and life-charting as this.
You very well may be right, and perhaps college will knock me out of this "cycle" that you're suggesting. I'm certainly open to falling in love with a woman. Indeed, I hope that this happens, because it would be a lot easier on me.
Just understand that this isn't easy, but I'm trying to do what I think is best for myself. What other options do you suggest?
Edited by taylor_31, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by iano, posted 06-12-2007 8:16 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by molbiogirl, posted 06-13-2007 2:41 AM taylor_31 has not replied
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 Message 73 by iano, posted 06-13-2007 9:41 AM taylor_31 has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2632 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 71 of 240 (405473)
06-13-2007 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by taylor_31
06-13-2007 12:45 AM


Taylor, before you "check out a couple of other options", know this: there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. Period. Full stop.
And just so you know, my best boyfriends (since I was 14 years old) have always been gay. Jack, Denny, Greg, Clint.
I have seen all four of them come out. It wasn't easy for any of them. But everything is A OK now.
More than OK. Jack is out in LA, in the production end of the film business. Denny is a trained opera singer and Kristin Chenoweth's good friend and ex-room mate. I lost track of Greg after high school, but I am from a very small town and I hear he is doing well (I know his mom). Clint just came out last year (at the age of 24) and is deliriously in love with his first boyfriend.
Clint is also a devout Christian and, yes, he came out to his parents. They said "It doesn't matter. We love you."
Please. Don't let anybody blow smoke up your skirt.
You are who you are. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by taylor_31, posted 06-13-2007 12:45 AM taylor_31 has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 72 of 240 (405494)
06-13-2007 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by taylor_31
06-13-2007 12:45 AM


Taylor, do you remember back in message 7 when I said
If you are a person of faith, I see nothing wrong in seeking counsel from a church leader, so long as that person is not committed to the idea that homosexuality is wrong. Such a person you need to run away from. Quickly.
I think this idea in particular was echoed by one or two others.
Iano is just such a person. He claims that the advice that you are likely to get here isn't impartial, that it will be liberally slanted. If by that he means that most of us will tell you to take it slow and find out who you really are, I guess he's right. He seems to think that his advice is impartial. If by that he means comparing your feelings to a destructive addiction like gambling or smoking, well, that doesn't sound very impartial, or particularly helpful, to me.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by taylor_31, posted 06-13-2007 12:45 AM taylor_31 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 06-13-2007 9:47 AM subbie has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 73 of 240 (405505)
06-13-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by taylor_31
06-13-2007 12:45 AM


taylor31 writes:
Of course, I did accept the "agenda" of homosexuality before I accepted it in myself. After looking at the issue for several months, I decided that there was nothing morally wrong with it.
You acceptance of it as an 'agenda' occurred in this way thus...
Only after the past year, when I began to doubt the validity of theism and Christianity, did the shame begin to fade.
It appears that up to that point, you considered it morally wrong (due to your religious background I'd gather) and by resolving it in manner you did (dumping your religion) you now have no problem with the agenda in principle - even if it brings with it a multitude of problems and problems loom in the future.
I repressed it - meaning no "entertaining, fantasizing, or masturbation" - for many years, until I finally began to indulge about two years ago. Indeed, I was tortured with guilt, and I would always beg for forgiveness for my sins.
I don't understand. If repressed and not entertained then what was there to feel guilty about? What sin had been committed if it has been repressed like you say? There is no sin in temptation - only what you do with that temptation - you'll have heard that no doubt.
There must have been some level of entertainment of your sexual attraction towards males. You struggled to keep a lid on it I'd warrant. But I find it hard to believe it was repressed (for all those years) in the total manner you suggest. Like, whether the object is a boy or a girl makes little odds - you were a teenage boy (you still are in fact) and teenage boys are nothing if not sexual creatures - that's as natural as the weather.
I think, however, that homosexuality is more taboo than "regular" sins. People generally accept normal sins, but gayness is always openly reviled, under threat of violence and isolation.
That's self-righteous Religion for you. Always more comfortable pointing the finger at another than at oneself.
Only after the past year, when I began to doubt the validity of theism and Christianity, did the shame begin to fade.
I'll grant you that after years of effort you would likely become exhausted by the struggle. Anyone trying to resist anything through willpower is going to either be miserable or cave in at some point. Something has to give somewhere.
I'll reiterate the point made about shame and guilt being intrinsic parts of the pleasure of entertaining 'illicit' thoughts - from the time you first entertained them (in whatever way you did). I say illicit because from your perspective then they were illicit. And its a well known fact that illicitness heightens the pleasurable aspects of things - in the arena of sexuality as well as many others - so there is an 'addiction-like' element to be considered in the shame and guilt like I have already said.
Biblically of course this is all grist to the mill. The purpose of God giving the law in the first place was to stimulate sin into acting. As soon as something is labelled "Thou shalt not" sin will be hopping up and down wanting to do precisely that. Sin is excited and stimulated by the illicit in a way it is not by the permissible. The more illicit the more exciting. And when sin does act, shame and guilt follow - which is what God expects to happen and wants to happen. Guilt and shame cause pain and pain tells us that something is amiss.
How would we know something is amiss with us (we are sinners) unless we suffered pain?
Indeed, I genuinely thought something was wrong with me, and I sincerely felt I was going to hell.
Biblically speaking there is something wrong with you. You're a sinner just like everyone else. That sinners sin is hardly surprising - least of all to God.
Honestly? It sounds to me more like your confused about God, what sexuality is and what your sexuality is, the place of shame, sin, temptation in Gods scheme of things.... and a whole raft more. No sin in that given you are a teen - but to take the massive step you are taking strikes me as hasty.
I'm certainly open to falling in love with a woman.
In practice you won't be if you decide to pigeonhole yourself at this juncture. Tell yourself that gay is what you are and you will find yourself charting that course and not the course that would make it likely that you fall in love with a woman. That you are sexually attracted to men is but one facet of your makeup at present. Sex might seem like a huge thing. But it is only one facet of all that is involved in a close personal relationship with another - and by no means the central aspect of such relationships.
Is this facet an acquired facet in your case? Perhaps. Sin attaching to you in this way as it does everyone in other ways? Perhaps. If so then you could be expected to feel shame - not that the purpose of shame is pointless.
Are you gay? If all you can say is that you are sexually attracted to men then the answer is not necessarily "yes!". Not by a long shot.
Rather than indulging in this process you've described, I fought tooth-and-nail to end it. This included many public "salvation" experiences, several public baptisms, dozens of desperate talks with my youth minister and pastor, and thousands of late-night prayers begging God to forgive me and to save my soul.
Can I give you a thumbnail sketch of biblical Christianity?
a) Man is a sinner. All sin is aimed at but one thing: man expressing his desire to remain independant and separate from God.
b) God loves man and wants man back where he intended for man: dependant upon God, operating within the boundaries that God sets for man.
c) Man is saved when God manages to convict a man of mans need for God. Totally convict and not before. Man needs to surrender totally to God. No half measures.
You didn't want God. You weren't surrendering to God. You just wanted the pain to go away. A natural enough thing to want perhaps but you could pray such prayers until the cows came home for all the immediate effect they would have. God wants you - he is not in the business of handing out aspirin to salve the pain of sin. Not when pain can be used to save you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by taylor_31, posted 06-13-2007 12:45 AM taylor_31 has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 74 of 240 (405507)
06-13-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by subbie
06-13-2007 7:28 AM


subbie writes:
He seems to think that his advice is impartial.
God knows whatever gave you that idea. I've already said that you won't get impartial advice at EvC. EvC is a watering hole where just about every philosophy in the world comes to sup.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 75 of 240 (405534)
06-13-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taz
06-11-2007 7:25 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
On the one hand, my god was telling me to hate.
Quick question, can you define that better?
Was God actually telling you something, or this is what was preached from the pulpit?
Religious bigots, on the other hand, think they are justified to hate by their creator.
I will never understand that. There is nothing that Jesus said, that would drive you to act that way.
Or does God come down and tell anyone to hate, I am convinced of that.
If tomorrow they suddenly find a cure for heterosexuality, I will gladly take the cure.
First you hated gays, now you hate religious fanatics.
First you thought being gay needed a cure, now you think being heterosexual needs a cure?
To me, it seems like you've never really changed your heart at all. You've just shifted your unrighteous hate from one camp to another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Taz, posted 06-11-2007 7:25 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Taz, posted 06-13-2007 1:17 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
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