Paul Harvey's take on prayer in public/Xmas (In general, a "freedom of speech" topic)

Please show us where in law it is illegal for me to stand at any given street corner and preach as long as I am not disruptive to traffic or pedestrians.Your example of the KKK at the football game is not valid because the KKK are presumably not the organizers of the game and therefore would be disturbing the peace. I do not have the right to run out into the middle of a football field during a game and start chanting about some religion but if I am one of the organizers I can set aside time to exercise my right to free speech if I so choose.If I am a principal at a school and I am forcing everyone to pray then that is wrong. If I am a principal at a school and I ask those would want to join me in prayer then that is fine.Racism is not a right but neither is it prohibited. It would be a sad day in our country when feeling are outlawed. Granted, it is illegal to discriminate in some cases, if you are an employer for example, but no where in the law does it say that you cannot hate someone for any reason.Don't get me wrong, I don't like racism and I am not advocating racism. All I am saying is that you seem to be speaking from some personal moral high ground that is inconsistent with what is actually law in this country. The law does not protect you from being exposed to religion. You need to recognize the "free exercise thereof" portion of that. I not only have the right to pray whereever and whenever I want within reason but I also have the right to ask you to pray with me without fear of being arrested. Of course, you also have the right to tell me to go to hell in a handbasket if you want but both are within our rights. It only starts infringing on our rights when I try to force you to pray with me or you try to make it impossible for me to pray.

It was awhile back but I remember seeing a 60-minutes style news report about a high school in a town where a large amount of Arabs had immigrated. The high school football team was split Anglo-Christian and Arab-Moslem and they still prayed as a team before the game. No one was forced to pray and everyone got along great. They all realized that they recognized the same God at the most basic level and were a stronger team because of it.I remember seeing all this and thinking about how awesome it would be if we could all just chill out when it came to this whole "your religion might offend someone" trip this country has been in. What a great example those boys set for tolerance and brotherhood.Since when did offending people become a crime in our society. Heck, I offend people every day with the bumper stickers on my car but that dosen't mean I don't have the right to have them there or that I should be arrested for it.

I tend to agree with most of that. The only thing I think should still be ok is e.g. a coach saying, "whoever wants to pray before the game can join me over in this corner." Even though he is an authority on public payrole he is not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to, he is not excluding anyone who wants to join, and ideally no one would be punished for not participating.Anyone who would raise a stink about something like that happening just seems like a malcontent. Even though it is probably a violation technically, if everyone is cool and no one person is targetted for oppression then it should not be an issue.Now I know you or someone might say that the line is too grey in that circumstance but I feel that overall we should be encouraging tolerance for situations in that grey area. Especially if no on is being hurt by it.

And in the USA you can say just about anything you want to anyone you want. You would only be arrested for it if you are also disturbing the peace or commiting some other crime but the speech is protected by our primary piece of legislation. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Yes racism is legal and I would fight to keep it that way. Not that I like racism but I certainly do like freedom and the freedom to have an opinion no matter what that opinion is. You just don't get it. Don't you understand what legislating feelings and opinions would mean? It is called facism and I for one would rather die than have the USA become a facist nation. How backward are you for even suggesting that we try to outlaw thought and free expression?The same rights that protect me from harm from assembling and speaking out about the Iraq War in this country also protect the KKK from harm for their assembly and protest. Those are our rights by the first amendment and I would hope that most Americans would fight to keep them that way. Now that all depends. If I don't let you into the public football game until you pray or agree to pray then I am discriminating against you. You hearing a prayer might offend you, but it does not discriminate against you. You don't seem to understand the difference between offense which is not illegal and discrimination which is denial of rights. Also, no matter how much you say it, you do not have the right to not be offended by someone or else we would all be in jail. Wrong again. You can not only hate them you can even tell them that you hate them. You just cannot not hire them based on your hatred because that would be discrimination. Someone subject to abuse always has the right to walk away. If they were abused in the process of applying for a job then they also have the right to get a lawyer and sue the crap out of the discriminating company. In either case it is not illegal for the employer to hate the applicant, just to act on that hate.Once again, if our legislators thought like you then everyone in the entire country would have a criminal record because everyone has offended someone at some time in their life. Offense is not illegal. Decency and civility is great. I am all for it. I am totally and utterly against legislating it though. If you think America is backwards because it does not make laws that tell people how to think then you may need to re-evaluate your own position on equality. Equality dosen't just mean equal for the people who think and act like you. First of all, we don't even know if this story is true. Second, if it is true we don't know the circumstances. Last, unfortunate as it is people get arrested when they shouldn't all the time. That just means the implementation of the law is broken though not the law itself.I think you really need to take time to consider the implications of the type of system you are condoning. The moment you try to protect one person from offense by law you offend all people. Protection of your feeling being hurt should never be a right and we would be taking a gigantic step backwards in human rights by doing so. That is why I have the right to display my "George Bush Sucks" sticker on my car and not have to worry about being arrested because some conservative loon is offended when they pull up behind me on the road. That is why I could stand on a street corner and hold up a sign that says "Jesus is Lord" while reading the Bible out loud if I felt that that was a useful way to spend my time. People might shout at me, call me names, honk their horns, but no one would be arrested because it is a free nation where your speech and right to peacibly assemble are protected by our highest order of law.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 01-04-2005 13:18 AM

Yes. And that same right allows me to stand at the opposite street corner and shout, "The KKK are scum and should be thrown out of America!" Yes it is a freedom. It is called the freedom of speech. Howard Stern makes a pretty good living off of offending other people. Hurting someones feelings is not abuse. You are not abused by listening to a prayer take place. The day that it becomes an abuse is the day I will no longer live here. And it is also his right not to have to ask you. If he just went ahead and prayed he should not be arrested for offending you. We do not legislate civility in America and I am proud of that. If this was a public school then I would be damn proud of my child for standing up for their right to pray over their food. If my child was arrested I would fight the system for illegally arresting my child. Then I would sue the school for making it against the rules to pray and infringing on my childs first ammendment rights. Blindly submitting to authority is something I NEVER want my child to learn. That is not the attitude that made America what it is today and it is a sickness that will destroy America if we let it into our hearts. You don't get it. She didn't break the law. Schools, public or private, do not make laws. If they did then it would not be America. It is not against the law to pray over your food and yet she was arrested. Even if the story is true this would be a travisty of a large magnitude for this to be allowed in the USA. I would hope that the ACLU would be involved in fixing the stain that is the violation of that girls rights should this story be true.{Edit: Removed part of a response that was not to Brian.}This message has been edited by Jazzns, 01-04-2005 11:52 AM

Right. But the original intent of the example was to show that some Christians feel that many are taking the Establishment Clause too far. In the US, the arrest of the girl is illegal because she is practicing her right to freedom of speech and that was the point of the example. All Brian is doing is missing the point either by ignorance or malcontent.

No. All I am saying is that you could not call the police and have the KKK arrested for offending you. You don't have to sit there an listen to it. You have every right to stand up and walk away. If it is their event and you want to participate then you are subject to their right to exercise free speech to the attendees of the game.I never said that anyone must accept the speech of others. No where in law does it say that either. What you cannot do is legislate opinion plain and simple. The same laws that give me the right to gather my friends and protest give the KKK the right to gather and hold a rally. I give my support to the ACLU knowing that someday they might defend the KKK and their right to assemble and I would continue to support the ACLU after that. As much as I personally hate the KKK, I would defend their right to free speech like I hope any proper American should.

A ball game might not normally be a venue for the KKK but that is not the point. If the KKK decided to start the KFL and hold games then they have the right to say anything they want at their private sporting event. If you decide to attend, you submit yourself to their speech. If you don't like it, don't go, or don't stay. No one is saying that you have to like it or accept it; just that it is not breaking the law hurting your feeling by hearing the free speech of another person.

See, now you are making up things and putting words into my mouth. Forcing someone to endure verbal assault is extremely different from being offended by another's free speech. It is not legal for two big white guys to verbally abuse a small black girl. If this were to happen her parents could have the two men arrested for child abuse. What is not illegal is for the same parents to have a bunch of KKK members arrested for speaking at the street corner in a legal assembly.I also could give a damn about your opinion of my decency. I personally think racism is one of the filthiest qualities a human being can posses. I am not advocating racism. We are just using it as an example because it is the extreme end of the spectrum. I am protected in this country if I go out and say, "I hate fascism!" In your fascist fantasy world, you could be offended by me saying this and have me arrested. In a REAL free country, I can say this with absolutely no fear of legal retaliation by any individual or the government. That same law that protects me from harm also protects someone from saying, "everyone should love Jesus" or, "hail Satan" in public. I am not happy that people do this at all. You just don't understand what human rights are. I personally would rather live in a country where it is legal for someone to be called a bad name then in a country where I could be arrested for a bumper sticker expressing my political opinion or for not asking permission to pray over my food in a restraunt. What is disgusting is that anyone who lives in a "freecountry" would be in such obvious support of fascism. Talk about civility and decency. Now see, in your fascist world, you could be arrested because you just offended me by calling me fucked up. But in America, your opinion that I am fucked up is protected under the Constitution. I guess I should call the police over in your hometown and have your charged with abuse then?I hate racism. But I cannot outlaw it without also giving up my right to call George Bush a big jerk. I would fight for my right to hold and express the opinion the George Bush is a big jerk and by doing so am fighting for the right for someone else to be racist. Opinions are not legislated in this country lest it no longer be the America that our founding fathers designed. Whether you agree with it or not, racism is a personal belief and not subject to legislation. Beliefs and opinions do not get legislated. You seem to be completely missing this point because you are so tied up with your self-righteous civility and decency that you feel everyone should be forced under by the law. No. Because then I could be prosecuted for my bumper sticker that say George Bush is a big jerk. My catholic friend could be arrested for their bumper sticker that says that people who have abortions are murderers. Some of my Christian friends could be arrested for their Jesus Love You bumper sticker. You could be arrested for calling me fucked up. Pretty much everyone except the people who cannot speak would or could all have criminal abuse charges on their record. Except then they might wear clothes that offend someone so then they could be arrested. Then I guess all we would have left would be the speech impaired nudists except that nudity offends some people and maybe someone somewhere is offended by people who cannot speak. And 100% protected under American law just like it should be. You talk about equality yet you are displaying acceptance of the most dangerous form of inequality. The inequality of people who dont think like you. You want legislation to force everyone to adhere to YOUR standards of civility and decency. This is in no way equal or acceptable and should never be tolerated. It is called fascism. Fascist people often call fascism other things like education and equality when it really means oppression and subversion of human rights. No one is ever saying that you have the freedom to verbally abuse someone. You just seem to think that because you hear something that you dont like that it should constitute verbal abuse. Verbal abuse is when you are forced to endure verbal assault. No one is forcing people at a KKK rally to stay there and listen to it. If they were, it would be abuse. Yet you seem to be getting away just fine with calling America backwards, calling me fucked up, etc. If I consider this abusive should you be arrested? Does my moral opinion about what is offensive create law? If you want personal morality and idealism to be forced upon other people by their governing body then you may also need a serious look at yourself sir. No. What I am saying is that the KKK has the right to peaceably assemble as a body of citizens. They can say anything they want but any disruption they cause is a mandate for applying the law. If they induced a riot then they are responsible. The difference is that the crime is inciting riot rather than speaking racist remarks. You do not go to jail for what you say but you can go to jail for the results of what you say. The freedom of speech does not protect you from shouting falsely that a person is carrying a bomb in an airport. You are not carried off to jail because of the content of what you said. You are carried off to jail because of what you said, where you said it, and because it was with the intent to cause panic. A cold day in hell God willing. Primitive is also something that a fascist might call human rights. If it was my football game that I organized and opened up to the public then I have the right to say anything I damn well want to before the game. If I say something that causes people to riot then I have committed the crime of inducing riot. If all I do is hurt your feelings because I say a Christian prayer then you can go home and cry about it all you want but in no way should I be subject to provisions of the law. Trying to keep this slightly on topic, if I was a principle of a public school at a school game and announced that all the attendees were now required to pray then I would most certainly be breaking the law. If that is true then I have never been happier that I do not live in Scotland. If civilized means becoming a fascist nation where opinion is a crime then I dont want be civilized. If civilized means that I can be arrested and put in jail for hurting your feelings then I dont want to be civilized. The day America passes laws to enforce your brand of common decency is the day America is dead. In fascist land maybe. Not in America. Your faith can be abused all day after I open up my All Sinners Go To Hell Gift Shop and Travel Agency. As long as I am not abusing you by forcing you to shop at my store I am within my rights as an American. All your examples show is oppression and basic human rights violations. Where did you get this idea. You have the right to feel whatever you want in America. You DO NOT have the right in written law to bring criminal charges upon someone for the simple act of hurting your feelings. You can try to sue them and in some cases you might win. But no act that would go on someones criminal record would have occurred. Who said anyone though it was okay? What does any of this have to do with society? I personally think it sucks that people do this. I also think that you dont belong in jail for calling someone a name. Apparently in your world you are going to jail for calling me fucked up. If I was like you then I would personally think that that word is disgusting and you should be criminally charged for offending me. It is awesome to live in a country where I can express my political and moral dissent without fear of an oppressive fascist nation throwing me in jail. It has been said before in this thread. People who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. You also have no evidence that freedom of speech causes crime and I doubt you will find any. America has its problems but God willing fascism will never be one of them. In non-fascist land, hurting someones feelings when they have the ability to leave or ignore you is not considered abuse. You already have that right in America. It is illegal to abuse people no matter what the reason. It is not illegal to say something that might offend someone though. You just have a screwed up sense of the meaning of abuse. You feel that anything that is counter to YOUR personal morality concerning decency and civility is abuse. You see, in America, the police can be wrong and there are consequences for them if they are wrong. If they arrest someone where they was no crime committed then they are actually breaking the law and can be sued. It is unfortunate but this does happen and we are very lucky to be part of a system that can be held accountable for not following its own rules.Mentioning Jesus is not illegal therefore any arrest on those grounds would be an illegal arrest and the police force could be sued. The police might be involved because they were confused, misled, or misunderstood the law. In any case, the police are not lawyers and are not the perfect righteous hand of justice that you seem to think they are. In fact, you cannot even be arrested legally in the US without a warrant issued by a judge unless the police catch you in the process of committing a crime. There are lots of laws in place that protect the people from illegal arrest but it still happens once in awhile.Also, laws get broken not crimes. Crimes are committed. Before you call my country a crime filled, backwards, primitive stain on the world maybe you should be more careful. It is hard to say because we dont have details. Like I said before, police arrest people without cause all the time and it is wrong and they usually pay consequences for it. I think getting rid of hate and racism is a great goal. Abusing people is already against the law in this country, even verbal abuse. Your twisted desire for thought legislation is offensive though. Guess in your world you should be arrested for offending me. Yes it does because that would mean that basic human rights of free speech that all should have would be destroyed and that is offensive to everyone. Ignorance is lack of knowledge not lack of submitting myself to your moral system. Your ignorance of the use of the word ignorant is appalling. How you think it is okay to make it illegal to hurt your feelings is beyond my comprehension. The point is, George Bush cannot have me arrested for my bumper sticker. He can be offended all day and if he doesnt like it then he can choose to ignore it or look away. He cannot and should not have the power to arrest me for my bumper sticker though. If I create a bumper sticker that says Brian Sucks then you should not be able to press criminal charges upon me. Not in the free world sir. Certainly in fascist land. You have the same protection from abuse in America. You just dont know what you are talking about and think that the way things are in your head are what is real. Apparently you do not have freedom of speech because I cannot pray over my food without first asking permission from everyone in the room. No. You legislate some sense of civility which is an exception to the right of free speech. A fascist one where the rule of law is your own personal sense of morality?This message has been edited by Jazzns, 01-05-2005 17:09 AM

You are right in the sense that you are not protected by the law when you yell fire in a public crowded place. You are not right if you mean that saying something that offends another person is a criminal offense. That by definition is a limitation on speech not a freedom of speech. You are advocating restrictions on speech by your own admission. It is not legal in the sense that there is a law that specifically allows racist comments to be spoken. It is legal because there is no law prohibiting that kind of speech. It is called freedom. You should try it some time. If they are forced to listen or it is being endorsed by an agent of the government then yes it is abuse. If they are not forced to listen or it is not being endorsed by an agent of the government then they can get over it because it is not breaking the law. I am not the one advocating fascism. You are right. America will not and should not legislate someones personal idea of civility. I would not vote for you if you were running for office in this country. You are also patronizing me. Since that offends me should you go to jail now? I guess maybe we both should in your world since we are both offending each other. You call yourself civilized and you are telling me that you believe that saying a personal prayer without asking should be illegal! That is fascism of the first order and is just plain sick!It does not matter if he knows you will be offended before hand or not. You do not have the right to criminalize someone based on their behavior contrary to YOUR BELIEFS! I will teach my children right from wrong. Just because an authority figure does something doesnt make it right because they are an authority figure. I would want my child to defy an adult if they are being abused by that adult. I will teach my children to know the difference between proper application of adult authority compared to abuse of them and their rights. I will teach my children their rights and responsibilities under the laws of the Constitution of the United States of America.Once again you are ignorant of the use of the word ignorant. You are saying anyone who doesnt believe in your personal values and morals is ignorant when the word really means a lack in knowledge. Ignorance is not opposition to your beliefs. That is not the point. If something is against the rules and you have agreed to it that is very different from someone infringing upon your rights at a public institution. No public school can make the rule that prayer is illegal because that violates the Constitution. Schools dont make laws. No because my right to shit on your floor is not protected by law. You are digressing into unintelligible ranting that has no purpose for the conversation we are having. A myth is a story not a set of founding laws. The Constitution contains the primary laws of our country and I would be ignoring my responsibility as a parent if I did not teach it to my children. I also would not expect them to follow it blindly but rather learn WHY it says what it says and how important it is for citizens of our country to protect it at all cost. Your implication sir is both demeaning and totally irrelevant. Not idyllic for people who believe in oppression, fascism, groupthink, and seclusion. Civility is fine. Legislating civility is a sickness that would destroy this country. I should never have to ask anyone for permission to pray. Yes it is quite nasty! It sucks and I hope the police and the DA were sued and the arresting officer fired for not knowing and following the first amendment. I have no idea how you distilled this out of Schools dont make laws. Yes laws apply in these places but no laws were being broken except the schools perception of the law. You cannot be arrested for a law someone makes up on the scene. Congress makes laws, schools do not. My mistake. In either case it is still wrong and the school system should have been taken to court. Of course this is assuming these were public schools since they used the Establishment Clause as the basis. It is not what I think. It is what the Constitution of the United States of America says! Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. What part of that is confusing to you? Just like your shitting on the carpet example this has absolutely no application to our discussion. Your right to use heroine is not protected by the Constitution. Your right to free speech and exercise of religion is explicitly protected by law. If she broke the law then yes she deserves to be punished. Since we have no details we cannot know except through speculation weather or not the arrest was legal.

Sure. I believe that the people who participate in deliberate hate speech are backwards and uncivilized. I also feel that their right to assemble and practice their backwards and uncivilized hate speech is and should continue to be protected by the Constitution.I am not an advocate for hate, just for freedom and the continuation of freedom.

Actually it is the responsibility of the country for which the law is written and ALL who live in it.I also could care less of your opinion of me or your self-righteous application of responsibility to all who live in a free country for the exercise of free. You can pout on these forums all day about how wrong you think it is annoying everyone in the process and I would also fight to protect your right to be such an exorbitant malcontent.No amount of personal sense of wrongness about a thought, opinion, idea, or personal expression should ever be legislated against lest we descend into fascism. Take that as facilitator of hate if YOU wish but to the rest who know the difference it is an endorsement of freedom.{Fixed spelling mistakes}This message has been edited by Jazzns, 01-06-2005 10:45 AM

Moreover, the right to free speech is protected by more than just a 200 year old law. It is also protected by 200 years of legal precedent and application in the courts. Our Constitution is not a religion where some immutable law is scribed into stone by beings of higher power.As soon as you make it Constitutionally legal to have a law that prevents hate speech you open the door to have laws that also prevent political dissent, religious dissent, artistic expression, and potentially even your right to come here on this form and say the things that you do. For instance, if we lived in Brian's perfect world where people are arrested for offending someone then surly you would be one of the first in jail due to your very abrasive debate style.The moment you are able to limit one kind of speech you set a viral example of how other types of speech that are disliked by the majority can also be outlawed. If you don't like the fact that this kind of thing is limited by the Constitution of the USA, don't live in America.

They can call for all they like but that does not mean it is going to be implemented. By the same right I am allowed to speak out against the DMCA, the Patriot Act, the Induce Act, the Espionage Act, etc without fear that the government is going to come arrest me for dissent.It also allows us to protest against a definition of marriage from being written to our Constitution. It also allows us to organize in front of public offices and protest the war. It allows us to protest and get Prohibition repealed and womens suffrage put into the Constitution.Yes the right is broad and inclusive but the the whole point! Fundies are allowed to gather over by the Lincoln monument, make a bunch of signs and chant about the Establishment Clause should be repealed from the Constitution. Meanwhile I can gather with a group of concerned citizens over at the Washinton monument, make a bunch of signs, and chant about how no one should ever repeal any single iota of the first amendment. In the middle of that one homeless guy can be standing in the middle of the pond with a sign made of cardboard around his neck saying that aliens are about to bring about the end times. All that speech and ability to peacibly assemble and petition the government is protected by our law. We already have such laws. Your ignorance of the Constitution is harrowing. And since you were given an explanation of the origin and reason for the system your rant about how the founding fathers are somtimes idolized is entirely useless to the conversation. The founding fathers missed a whole bunch of stuff. We had to pay the price of a civil war to finally realize their mistake and rectify the Constitution to include equality for all. By your moral standard which should not be legislated by government. Which it is not in America. We have a whole bunch of laws, the Constitution not the least of these, that explicitly prohibit racial, ethnic, religious, or any kind of abuse.

Which is a complete mischaracterization of what he said. In the USA you have to have a court order to get a wire tap to gather evidence on a suspect. In the USA I can sit in my own home, in your home, on the steps of the capitol building or even in the midst of the president himself and say how much I think the admistration sucks ass and I cannot by law be arrested unless I am also commiting some other crime by that act. Not on the basis that it is private property. On the basis that it is not officially sanctioned by an agent of the government. I can stand on public property and make bigotted comments if I want to as well. I may also pay the price if those comments incite riot or I say them in a way that is targeted toward and with the intent to abuse a specific person. Overall, you seem to think abuse is sanctioned in the USA when it is explicitly not. What is also explicitly protected by law is your expression that does not explicitly abuse anyone even if it may be denegrating or offensive. Even if you don't like it, that is the point. Your morals or sense of civility don't make law.