Paul Harvey's take on prayer in public/Xmas (In general, a "freedom of speech" topic)

I'm assuming this topic has been beaten to death somewhere else, but Paul Harvey's take on it may stir some dormant fluids in the brain.This message has been edited by Tal, 01-03-2005 08:08 AM{Topic title modified (1-7-05) to add the "(In general, a "freedom of speech" topic)" part. - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-07-2005 14:04 AM

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Who is Paul Harvey?

this is who: http://www.klmj.com/harvey.htmPersonally, I agree with him. But then, you guys expected me to, right? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-03-2005 06:58 AM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Not believing in Santa Claus does not condemn you to Hell for all eternity. Perhaps it is promoting one faith over another that people object to. People do not hire lawyers either when their kids are taught many different creation myths at school, so what is his point? Perhaps your life wont be but you liberty is, and your pursuit of happiness. Surely you have the right to go to a football game and not have someone else’s mythology rammed down your throat, and hearing thousands of people fawning over a non-existent, ancient folk tale character is not everyone’s idea of happiness. It seems as if Harvey is the one making the big deal, if it is no big deal then why moan about it? It is still encroaching on people human rights regardless of how long the begging is. Why do they have to make such a song and dance about it then? Prayer is a private thing, but these Christians seem intent on showing off to the rest of the crowd. ‘Look at me, I am a Christian, see how I pray to God’. Why not just pray to God anyway, prayer between you and Him, what is the problem is it because you want to broadcast your faith? But, is the USA founded on Christian principles? I very much doubt it. Gzus, there are more gullible Americans than I thought. Why would anyone expect any type of religious ritual at a football game? Are there Jewish prayers before football games? Why? I certainly wouldn’t. Muslim do not just pray anywhere, it has to be a clean place with enough room for their prayer mat. This guy hasn’t a clue. This guy is extremely ignorant of other faiths. Buddha is not seen as a god in Buddhism, and he is in Pari-nirvana so praying to him is no good. Some Buddhists focus on Buddha as an example that all can attain enlightenment. But, praying to Buddha is nonsense and doesn’t happen. Also, there are countless Buddhas that are said to have existed, and Boshisattvas who help people attain enlightenment. Old Paul could do with an editor. Well, the fact that none of the above actually happen would help wouldn’t it? Do what the Roman Catholics do? Would Paul pray to Mary and the Saints? The atheists who couldn’t care less about this silly mythology? All they would do is humour you. Are atheists complaining? AH, so he isn’t a Roman Catholic. We have been humouring you for centuries, you just don’t realise it. Pray in private if it is too much to ask for you to be civil to other people. So why do the thousands not just pray anyway, what is going to happen ot them, will they be jailed, or the game abandoned? Neither will not having a prayer, so stop whinging there are more important things ti worry about. Winning the game for example. What about other people’s rights? Next you will think it is okay for the National Front to have a five minute slot before every football match in the UK. Don’t see anything there about praying before football games. Even when you are eating and sleeping? Isn’t it just before football games? I mean they aren’t telling people to stop praying at all times are they? I don’t think it is God that needs to help you, although a psychiatrist could help a lot. If you prayed in silence then that would suite everyone, but no you got to draw attention to yourselves. What a bunch of attention seekers. Have a vote on it then and stop moaning about it. USA is a democracy, vote for heavens sake. While all the time telling you that you are going to hell and that you are evil worthless scum. Is he still talking about the game here? And those that never think about him for a second. America has faults? except for Scotland of course, who dragged the rest of the world out of the dark ages. Is that what it is all about?Anyway, pray before you go to a football game, go to church before a game and fill yer boots, have a ball, then go to the game, or pray in silence at a game, what is the difference?Are Christians annoyed because they are not allowed to put their faith on show?Brian.

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I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

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Oh, but there is quite an organized radical, right-wing Christain Creationist movement that has been doing exactly that for decades.It's a bit disingenuous for Paul to ignore that reality.

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So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.

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What if it was a Satanist prayer, or a Wiccan prayer to the Goddess? Would all of the Christians in the stands be thinking, "What's the big deal? I don't mind!"

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But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.

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It most certainly is not. From the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, unanimously approved by the US Senate after being read aloud:Top Cash Earning Games in India 2022 | Best Online Games to earn real moneybold added by me.

Well let me be the first person to agree in large portion with Paul Harvey... and I assume Tal.If we are talking some mandatory prayer before every game then I might start scratching my head, but if it is just that someone reads a prayer... BFD.I was quite upset to hear that where my relatives live in west suburban IL, people have been told to remove any religious imagery from their windows during Xmas. What the ????I don't get where people displaying their faith is so hostile or offensive an act, unless it is mandated or overtly an attempt to prosyletize.That said, Harvey did show an incredible amount of ignorance regarding other religions, which is exactly what Xians ought to stop doing when they try and make arguments for their case.Also, and this is a real huge biggy, if Xians get prayers before the game, then I say I get titties at halftime! If we are supposed to not worry about other faiths and beliefs than a Janet Jackson nipple shot ought to be a-okay.I mean if we want to get into demographics, how many hot an horny guys are watching football and would like to see such things at half time? How many would agree such things are better than a dumb marching band?The fact that Xians have descended en masse to wipe out free speech in the name of their faith at football games, makes it just a little hypocritical to be whining that someone might be offended by them flashing their spiritual nipple at a game... right?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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If we are talking some mandatory prayer before every game then I might start scratching my head, but if it is just that someone reads a prayer... BFD.

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When I went to high school, there was a manditory prayer before every football game, and it was always a Christian prayer.Graduation ceremonies were the same.

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I was quite upset to hear that where my relatives live in west suburban IL, people have been told to remove any religious imagery from their windows during Xmas. What the ????

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That is a bunch of bullshit, I agree. But one's home isn't a publically-funded institution like a school is.

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I don't get where people displaying their faith is so hostile or offensive an act, unless it is mandated or overtly an attempt to prosyletize.

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At my school, I don't think that any kind of prayer other than a Christian prayer would have been alowed. I can only imagine the uproar if a wiccan prayer or a Muslim prayer was said over the loudspeakers before the game.

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I mean if we want to get into demographics, how many hot an horny guys are watching football and would like to see such things at half time? How many would agree such things are better than a dumb marching band?

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Hey, watch it, I was in the marching band.Titties are fine, but I like marching bands.

Mandatory prayer is different than customary prayer. Was it actually mandated where you were? If so, then that seems wrong. I lived and went to school right in Bible central (next to the Billy Graham Center) and we didn't have mandatory prayer.If it is a public school then that is even worse, it would be illegal. I thought this was in reference to pro football games or something, which owners could clearly mandate if they wanted to, though then I would consider it offensive, even if legal. My guess is you would generate a lot of prayers very quickly if suddenly over the loudspeakers the cry of Allah u Ahkbarrrrr was heard. Ahem... cough cough... mumbles i was in a marching band too... cough cough.They suck! Just my opinion, although they would rank higher if we could combine the nudity with the marching band.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

That is absolutely ridiculous. Your rights are not endangered by someone else exercising free speech and freedom of religion. If you are too hypersensitive to stand it, raise a protest, pray to your own God, or toughen the hell up, but don't deprive everyone else of their rights because you disagree with them. Even if someone did sit up there and read the whole book of acts or Surah, it would not be encroaching on anyone's rights. We have the freedom TO speak not the freedom FROM speech. Well, yeah, it really was. I don't know, but if somebody wants it, nobody should force them to stop it. Yep. I remember one atheist a while back that forced the school to stop saying the pledge of Allegiance because it contained the word "God" in it. And I'm sure that's not the only one. In another case a little girl was warned not to pray over her food. She did anyway and was suspended from school. Where's the uncivilized behavior? Well, the thousands might get away with it, but I recall a female valedictorian who was arrested after mentioning Jesus in her graduation speech. ...And the school might get sued for failing to stop it. Typically, a Christian believes God is far more important than winning the game. What about them??? They still have the right to free speech and freedom of religion. Hearing someone else's free speech and seeing someone else worship does NOT violate that person's rights. Well, what about the little girl who was suspended for praying over her lunch? Of course you would never entertain the idea that you misunderstand their position. "Where one or two are gathered together in My Name, I am there with them in Spirit." Praying together is like singing the national anthem together. Everyone has a spirit of unity. Of course by your logic, we should not sing the national anthem together because we might offend someone with anti-American sentiments. Here, yet again, you post another arrogant statement showing how absolutely superior you believe yourself to be as if believers are sad little children and you must humble yourself to come down and speak with them. And we should be able to vote on it and move on as I am espousing in another thread, but due to the criminally broad interpretation of the separation between church and state judges continue destroy democracy and majority decision by throwing religion out altogether thereby destroying our freedom. Who's doing that? No sir, he's talking about the rights we originally possessed. In the word of William Wallace: "FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I don't know of any church big enough for an entire 5-A school and it doesn't make sense for everyone to have to meet at a different location to pray. Why not just do it at the game?Christians are threatened because their rights are being taken away.

The First Amendment states:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.Please tell me, what part of the First Amendment don't you understand. Perhaps I or someone else could clarify it for you.By the way, believing in Santa Claus is not a religion, and neither is going around for trick or treat during Holloween. Please grow up.This message has been edited by Lam, 01-03-2005 13:48 AM

The football came is a private venture. I think that the owners etc can have any kind of pregame activity they want. I don't have to pray. Others can. No big deal.In any place where there are government dollars supporting it then the separation of church and state comes into it.I suggest that there are those who carry it too far (like if the story about the little girl over her lunch is actually true -- it seems some of these are false). Of course, there will be such people. We need to keep clear what is within in bounds and is not.An individual praying over their lunch on on a prayer mat in the corner of the playing field or gym of a school should be ok. However, we do have to be careful of having the school itself impose any prayer of any kind or allow peer pressure to come in to it.This is another one of those cases were a bit of reasonableness is requiered.I'd really like to see some muslims open a football game in a school with a prayer. You can bet that a lot of these Christians would be quick to try to stamp that out.When you think back it is amazing what a good job the founders of the USA did. It is a rare historical event where such people come together and think things through so very well.It is a shame that there aren't any people of that stature and wisdom in power now.This message has been edited by NosyNed, 01-03-2005 15:27 AM

Oops, I am guilty of replying too fast and not payed extra attention to the details.I do agree that since the football game is a private venture the owners could do whatever they want, in short of having the audience members shot.I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Yes they are. I have the right not to listen to bigoted comments from Christians.Do you think it would be okay for the KKK to stand up before a game and inform us all how superior white people are to black people? It doesn’t bother me at all, I find it embarrassing more than anything else. I don’t believe in god. It isn’t me that’s complaining, it's some Christian nut. But it isn’t your right to pray in mixed company, don’t you understand human rights? You don’t seem to understand what freedom of speech actually is. You have the freedom of speech but you also have the responsibility of not offending anyone when you speak. Human rights do no come without responsibilities. So, if you are offending anyone in a particular situation you should quite rightly be told to be quiet. Care to back that up? I dare say the KKK would like to do it too! You aren’t making any sense.It is a sporting venue for people to witness a sporting contest, it isn’t a flaming church. He must have had a good case then surely? You don’t just turn up and tell people to do things and they do them. Quite rightly as well. If she was warned and broke the school rules then she should rightly be suspended. I don’t know how a parent can be happy that their child blatantly disobeying authority, this is very un-Christian you know. I am sure Paul would not have approved. Performing religious rituals in mixed company is uncivilised, and very impolite. If she was arrested then she must have broke the law! How can you defend people that blatantly break the law like this? Why? No they don’t, as my KKK example shows. But it does if they are offended by it. You are basically saying that racism is not violating anyone else’s human rights! You mean the little girl that broke the school rules? She ignored the warning and her disobedience rightly earned her a suspension. But this offends people, it is no different to a KKK rally. And there are places where this can and cannot be done. Exactly, National Anthems are outdated. I am not superior to anyone, but the author of this article has got no idea what he is talking about. Not all believers are sad little children but some certainly act as if they are. But you are free to worship and follow your religion, you just aren’t free to force others ot listen to it. Pick an evangelist any evangelist. But why pray at a sporting venue? There is a time and place for everything. And as I said, you can pray without all the song and dance without anyone knowing, why draw attention to yourself? No their privileges are being taken away, no one has the right to offend anyone else in public.Brian.

Please show us where in law it is illegal for me to stand at any given street corner and preach as long as I am not disruptive to traffic or pedestrians.Your example of the KKK at the football game is not valid because the KKK are presumably not the organizers of the game and therefore would be disturbing the peace. I do not have the right to run out into the middle of a football field during a game and start chanting about some religion but if I am one of the organizers I can set aside time to exercise my right to free speech if I so choose.If I am a principal at a school and I am forcing everyone to pray then that is wrong. If I am a principal at a school and I ask those would want to join me in prayer then that is fine.Racism is not a right but neither is it prohibited. It would be a sad day in our country when feeling are outlawed. Granted, it is illegal to discriminate in some cases, if you are an employer for example, but no where in the law does it say that you cannot hate someone for any reason.Don't get me wrong, I don't like racism and I am not advocating racism. All I am saying is that you seem to be speaking from some personal moral high ground that is inconsistent with what is actually law in this country. The law does not protect you from being exposed to religion. You need to recognize the "free exercise thereof" portion of that. I not only have the right to pray whereever and whenever I want within reason but I also have the right to ask you to pray with me without fear of being arrested. Of course, you also have the right to tell me to go to hell in a handbasket if you want but both are within our rights. It only starts infringing on our rights when I try to force you to pray with me or you try to make it impossible for me to pray.