|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 916,402 Year: 3,659/9,624 Month: 530/974 Week: 143/276 Day: 17/23 Hour: 0/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Paul Harvey's take on prayer in public/Xmas (In general, a "freedom of speech" topic) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Actually, while we are the most prosperous, we also have the greatest divide between the rich and the poor of any industrialized nation. We have nearly a quarter of our children living below the poverty line.
quote: So, do you think that we shouldn't have given women the right to vote, or something?
quote: If you want to see what it's like to live in a Theocratic nation, you could look at Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. Iran, too.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
berberry Inactive Member |
keith63 writes:
quote: And here's what YOU missed: The 14th Amendment!! You see, when the government allows a religion to offer prayer at a government-sponsored event (like a public high school football game), it is not offering equal protection under the law. There is no practical way that it could honor the equal protection cause while allowing prayer. Why is this so difficult to understand? Keep America Safe AND Free!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
keith63 Inactive Member |
Why is this so difficult to understand? I don't know? Why dont you understand it?
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. I think, like the first ammendment, this also says No State shall make or enforce any law Again if I am right a faculty member or student, by praying, are not making any laws. If anything someone says is "making a law" I would sure like to know that bacause I could think of some great laws I would like to speak. I am a public high school teacher after all. Maybe while I'm at it, and since I'm making laws, I could get the same insurance benefits as congressman. If so let me know.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
berberry Inactive Member |
keith63 misapprehends:
quote: Please provide the quote where I said they were. I didn't. What I quite correctly said was that you were ignoring the 14th amendment. You quote it directly and still ignore it. Try to concentrate on this part:
...nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Where do you get the silly notion that this only applies to law-making? Keep America Safe AND Free!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazzns Member (Idle past 3932 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Except for the mounds of legal precedent that says it does violate the Establishment clause.
from http://fact.trib.com/1st.religion.html
Minersville v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586 (1940) - Supreme Court rules that a public school may require students to salute the flag and pledge allegiance even if it violates their religious scruples. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) - Court overturns Gobitis but is broader in its scope. No one can be forced to salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance if it violates the individual's conscience. McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203 (1948) - Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962) - Court finds school prayer unconstitutional. Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional. Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980) - Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional. Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985) - Court finds state law enforcing a moment of silence in schools had a religious purpose and is therefore unconstitutional. Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987) - Court finds state law requiring equal treatment for creationism has a religious purpose and is therefore unconstitutional. Lee v. Weisman, 112 SCt. 2649 (1992) - Court finds prayer at public school graduation ceremonies violates the establishment clause and is therefore unconstitutional. Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, (2000) - Court rules that student-led prayers at public school football games violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Also at the site are many examples of religious freedoms being protected when they were illegally restricted.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
keith63 Inactive Member |
Where do you get the silly notion that this only applies to law-making?
By reading the entire thing instead of a chosen part out of context.
Try to concentrate on this part: because that's how misinterpretations, such as you are making, happen. Lets read the whole part in context.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. When taken in context this clearly says the state can't deny any persons equal protection under the law. I think the state implies our elected officials who legislate law. No laws are being broken, written, or enforced, No one is mandated to participate, therefore it shouldn't fall under the 14th amendment.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Here's a whole bunch of fun tidbits about the attitude of the founding fathers towards Christianity.
I already knew about Jefferson and Paine, but John Adams, Ben Franklin, Ulysees S. Grant, and Roger Williams (founder of Rhode Island, represent, baby!) are new ones on me.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
When taken in context this clearly says the state can't deny any persons equal protection under the law. And schools are run by...?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
berberry Inactive Member |
keith63 writes me:
quote: Exactly. Try to follow me: the State makes the laws. The state runs the public schools. In fact, the state makes laws that govern the schools. The schools are thus an extension of the state. The state is not allowed to deny equal protection to ANYONE; atheist, Christian, Jew, ANYONE. Offering prayer at a state-sanctioned event of any sort denies equal protection to anyone present who might not concur with the prayer. It's that simple. Keep America Safe AND Free!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Everything was just fine so long as we allowed slavery, denied women the vote and the right to own property, enforced segregation laws...... These things were accepted nearly worldwide at the time. In spite of them, people were desperately wanting to migrate to America. Even many of the slaves who had Christian masters had had a better life here than in the pagan jungle tribe where they often lived in fear and danger.
forced children into working 16-hour days in sweatshop factories, pursued polices to perpetuate poverty and starvation, etc. Oh, come now. What percentage of America's children were forced to do this.......certainly a tiny percentage of all the children and there has been after America was established, relatively miniscule incidence of starvation and far less poverty than in most of the world. Why do you think people were waiting in line to emigrate here? The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
freedoms which Biblical principles bring. How can telling people they can't do something that doesn't hurt themselves or anybody else bring freedoms?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Even many of the slaves who had Christian masters had had a better life here than in the pagan jungle tribe where they often lived in fear and danger. If you were offered the choice between freedom and risk, or slavery and safety for the rest of your days, which do you think you would pick? Now imagine that someone just made that choice for you, only they chose the other one. How would you feel about that?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
buzsaw writes:
quote: Oh, lord...not the "some slaves liked slavery therefore slavery isn't necessarily bad" argument again. I thought riVeRraT was gone. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
berberry Inactive Member |
buzsaw writes me:
quote: What percentage is acceptable to you? A cursory scan through my old high school American history textbook (The American Pageant: A History of the Republic by Thomas A. Bailey and David M. Kennedy, 6th ed.) shows me that in 1820, half of America's factory workers were chldren under ten years of age. That would be 50%. As in HALF! Under TEN! Perhaps you'd care to do a bit of research yourself. Here's a great place to start: Child Labor in Pennsylvania, from the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, an agency of the state government. I don't mean to sound as though I'm dumping on you, buz, but I do wish you'd trouble yourself to look a thing or two up now and then before you post. My point is that things have ALWAYS been horrible in this country. But they've also ALWAYS been wonderful. Life is like that. Good and bad. That's how things are, that's how they always have been and that's how they always will be. Until now, things have steadily gotten better because we as a country have become more LIBERAL. That's not a bad thing. Keep America Safe AND Free!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
berberry Inactive Member |
Rrhain writes:
quote: No, he's still around. In fact he seems to have mellowed slightly. In another thread he's been arguing with buz and other fundies that the recent tsunami disaster is not an example of God's wrath on heathen people. I was pleasantly surprised with him. Keep America Safe AND Free!
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024