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Author Topic:   Bush takes one more step toward outright fascism.
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 1 of 158 (334933)
07-24-2006 4:12 PM


Bush blocked surveillance probe
WASHINGTON - President Bush effectively blocked a Justice Department investigation of the National Security Agency's warrantless surveillance program, refusing to give security clearances to attorneys who were attempting to conduct the probe, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Tuesday.
Bush's decision represents an unusually direct and unprecedented White House intervention into an investigation by the Office of Professional Responsibility, the internal affairs office at Justice, according to administration officials and legal experts. It forced OPR to abandon its investigation of the role played by Justice Department officials in authorizing and monitoring the controversial NSA eavesdropping effort.
"Since its creation some 31 years ago, OPR has conducted many highly sensitive investigations involving Executive Branch programs and has obtained access to information classified at the highest levels," chief lawyer H. Marshall Jarrett wrote in a memorandum released Tuesday. "In all those years, OPR has never been prevented from initiating or pursuing an investigation."
How can conservatives continue to defend this president. He is anti-democracy and therefore by extension anti-American. When he is not being completely ineffective as a leader he is doing everything he can to destroy whatever last thread decency our government had left.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by randman, posted 07-24-2006 5:32 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 7 of 158 (334979)
07-24-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by randman
07-24-2006 5:32 PM


Re: the New World Order?
So your only comment is, "hey look they did it too!".
Hey everybody. Don't look at what is behind that door. Remember Clinton? Doesn't it make you mad ... uh ... still.
This shit is despicable. We all should be outraged by this if you are not already.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by randman, posted 07-24-2006 5:32 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 07-24-2006 9:55 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 158 (335030)
07-24-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
07-24-2006 9:55 PM


Re: the New World Order?
Yea there is that but unless you were not paying attention you would realize that this is less about the wire taps and more about the president's actions concerning transparency and allowing the checks and balances built into the government work as they were designed.
He blatantly does not want a democracy. He wants an authoritarian regime with himself as the head.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 07-24-2006 9:55 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by randman, posted 07-24-2006 10:26 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 158 (335062)
07-25-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by randman
07-24-2006 10:26 PM


Re: the New World Order?
All you are saying boils down to that we shouldn't care because others have screwed up in the past. It is a depressing degree of complacency. But then again I suppose it is to be expected if the rapture is any minute now.
I am more curious to see if you or any others who may still agree with Bush are willing to discuss the issue in the OP that resides in the real world. Forget the diversions. What Bush is doing is anti-democratic. He has failed in his oath to the people to uphold the Constitution. The actions of past presidents or congress does not change that simply fact.
How anyone could still support this man is a wonder to me.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by randman, posted 07-24-2006 10:26 PM randman has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 40 of 158 (335306)
07-25-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by randman
07-25-2006 5:51 PM


Distractions
It is extrodinarily telling that the only defense one can muster for Bush is to continually point at the wrongdoings of Clinton among another presidents.
What other presidents did or did not do does not change the facts of what this president is doing now. What he is doing is halting all investigation into his illegal activities. That makes him a dictator.
Do any Bush advocates actually want to defend this charlatan? Please, someone try to defend this action.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by randman, posted 07-25-2006 5:51 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by randman, posted 07-25-2006 8:13 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 51 of 158 (335421)
07-26-2006 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
07-26-2006 12:22 AM


Off Topic
I'll note AGAIN that there has yet to be one defense of THIS PRESIDENT'S current actions.
If your only tactic rand is to draw this thread off topic about Clintion then just stop. If you don't have anything useful to say then why say anything. The more you are brining up off-topic issues the more you are making it painfully aware that there really is no defense of this president's actions. He is quite simply an elected dicator. If congress wasn't more than half comprised of other republicans completely willing to sell out to the party line then he should be or have been impeaced by now. The only conclusion that one could draw from this latest and past actions of this president is that he is anti-democratic and therefore anti-American.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 12:22 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 10:50 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 56 of 158 (335457)
07-26-2006 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by randman
07-26-2006 10:50 AM


Re: Off Topic
As was noted rand, the only person who brought up Clinton was YOU!
Yet more and more diversion because you cannot defend the fascist action of your favorite man in office. There are lots of presidents that I don't like randman and I have made no comment about which ones I do and do not support. I want to talk about THIS president and his anti-democratic behavior. Take your Clinton bashing and diversions somewhere else. As they stand here they are nothing more that evidence of your inability to deal with the issue.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 10:50 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 07-26-2006 12:32 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 63 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 1:09 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 74 of 158 (335504)
07-26-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by randman
07-26-2006 1:09 PM


Re: Off Topic
The topic is not what should be done about Bush. YOU brought that up and I offered my opinion. This topic is not about the failings of the various political agendas of the past or present. YOU brought that up.
YOU brought all that up because you have failed to and continue to fail to address the CURRENT actions of THIS president and the ramifications thereof.
So far there is only one conclusion to be made about Bush's actions. They are that of or equivalent of an elected dicatatoriship. There is no balance of power under his reign by his own actions. Even if other people are responsible for setting a precident, THIS president CHOOSE to continue it and further his own fascist agenda.
You HAVE NOT addressed that point at all and it is completely telling of how weak and desperate your defense has been.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 1:09 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 5:14 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 97 of 158 (335613)
07-27-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
07-26-2006 5:14 PM


Re: wrong, as usual....
I am just going to start ignoring the off topic portions of your posts. The more you rage on against liberals the more your are simply dodging the topic and trying to shift blame. Keep doing it. All it does is make your position seem more and more worthless.
Most conservatives have never unequivocally "supported Bush."
And how many times has a republican controlled congress gone against the desires of the president? How many pieces of legislation has Bush had to veto?
Last time I checked, the count was a big fat ONE.
If that is not unequivocal then maybe you can give me whatever revisionist definition of unequivocal you are using to make your claim. Even the conservative pundits are constantly giving Bush and the administration the proverbial hand job on a regular basis.
They even have the balls, unlike Bush's defenders here so far, to outright defend the NSA wiretapping as legitimate and necessary. Constitutionality be damned.
There is certainly an underbelly of moderate conservatives out there who don't give Bush a blank check but when they are not going with the flow to not rock the GOP boat they might as well be equivalent to a Delay or Santorium. It simply is not good enough. The GOP cannot handle the devil it made a deal with which is the religious liberals squeezing the government under the lie of being "conservative". Now they have a president who panders to that crowd and they can do nothing politically to counter it without self-destruction. Case in point, notice how McCain is playing kiss ass with Fallwell.
I think they are more likely to abuse their office and power
Perhaps. I don't necessarily disagree. You presumed that I am some sort of liberal die hard and your presumtion did nothing except make you look silly. But as it stands now Bush has one upped the whole lot. He will stand atop McCarthy and Wilson. He has brought us the closest to an Authoritarian government that we have ever been. And we still have 2 years to go.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 07-26-2006 5:14 PM randman has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 126 of 158 (336963)
07-31-2006 4:11 PM


Mods?
We get a moderator action when someone talks about Duddly Dorite but nothing about this off-topic Clinton tirade?
Randman is purposfully distracting the topic of this thread and has been asked MANY times to stop. This is not about clinton or any other past president for that matter. Even IF Bush HAD been empowered by the actions of other presidents to do what he is doing he has still made the CHOICE to put himself above the law and the Consitution.
It is his actions that make him an elected dictator. He is furthering this country toward fascism and I would like to hear what his fanatics have to say about HIM. NOT CLINTON! THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT GEORGE W. BUSH AND HIS ACTIONS!

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 130 of 158 (337377)
08-02-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by randman
07-31-2006 3:56 PM


Bump for Bush Supporters
So does anyone have anything to say about this latest abuse of power by your moral choice for leader of this country?
You all seem to have a lot to say about political issues lately on this forum yet the only defense of Bush given so far has been an off topic and irrelivent rant about Clinton.
The silence is incredibly deafening. Just like YECs in science topics, when the position is indefensible, all there is to be heard is the crickets in the night.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by randman, posted 07-31-2006 3:56 PM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 08-02-2006 12:50 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 08-02-2006 1:04 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 132 of 158 (337388)
08-02-2006 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
08-02-2006 12:50 PM


Hand waving
The allegation in the title of this thread is too paranoidally ridiculous for me to have the energy to read through it.
Right. Par for the course. You have a preconcieved notion about something and nobody can say or do anything to ever disturb that. It is pure dogmatism no matter if it is science, religion, or in this case politics. When a significant enough challange is raised you simply dismiss it with condempt (Paranoidally rediculous) and run away rather than address the content of the issue. Really can your main man in office do NOTHING to elicit your criticism? Or if it is so rediculous, can you say nothing in his defense?
Once again I point out that the silence is deafening.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 08-02-2006 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-02-2006 1:02 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 135 of 158 (337401)
08-02-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
08-02-2006 1:04 PM


Willing to examine the fascism claim
Ok Percy. You bring up a good objection. I MAY be going to far by calling him a fascist. Lets try to talk this through.
From: Fascism - Wikipedia
Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.
Lets work backwards starting with anti-liberalism. Following that link on wikipedia we have:
Broadly speaking, contemporary liberalism emphasizes individual rights as opposed to group rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, free public education, and progressive taxation, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected. [2] In modern society, liberals favor a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed[3].
That is pretty much the antithesis of everything Bush and by extension his administration has done since they have been in office. If you want to argue this point then we can dive into the finer details of it.
Next we have anti-communism and anti-anarchism. Shouldn't be any argument there.
Next there is militarism. I think our pre-emptive strike in Iraq among the other policies advanced the state of our military lets us put a check next to that one.
Then there is extreme nationalism. Again we can dive into the details of this one if you like but I think it is pretty obvious that this property is true.
Next is authoritarianism. This is pretty much the definition of the neo-conservative position as empowered by the religious right. This is also supported by the recent action in the OP, the Patriot Act, the NSA wire tapping, attempts to pass laws such as DOM and anti flag desecration legislation, the rigidity and impracticality of NCLB, anti-choice efforts of the neo-cons in general, and other subversion of legislative and judicial authority by the executive branch.
Corporatism....Haliburton...Check!
The last criteria would be a radical totalitarian political philosophy. The moment Bush put himself above the Constitution we have this condition. Add to this the actions taken by Bush and other neo-cons to disregard the minority opinion (i.e. "nuclear option", redistricting) and the voting booth becomes merely a way for the citizens of this country to stand in line for awhile to feel good about being "democratic".
I am willing to be shown wrong on this. That is why I started this topic. So far though, rather than defending Bush all we have seen is a bunch of people being offended by my use of the word fascist.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 08-02-2006 1:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 08-02-2006 2:13 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 137 of 158 (337411)
08-02-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Percy
08-02-2006 2:13 PM


Re: Willing to examine the fascism claim
But Percy, I said I am willing to be shown wrong. I am am willing to examine where the reasoning behind my decision might be flawed. It is not like I woke up one day and decided to give Bush that label. I keep up with politics, I was activly involved in the 2004 elections. I examined the criteria for fascism and found that Bush DOES meet those criteria. On the basis of the actions of himself and his administration I stand by my conclusion that he is an elected dictator.
Yes it is strong words but so what? Do the fact that they may seem extreme automatically make the position invalid? I would like an answer to that.
Beyond that, if I am being extreme that I don't understand why there is so little opposition. People bring up extreme topics all the time that are far more rediculous than assigning a fascist lable to the president. These types of extreme positions illicit a response due to their obvious irrational and/or illogical basis. People on this board have a tendency to jump on situations like this. Why would this case be so different then if I am being WAAY out there or something?
So far the only thing I can conclude since no one will engage me on the actual content of my objection is that it is either not interesting or that opposition is to difficult for anyone to pick up the torch. Me and you are really talking about a meta issue regarding the topic. How about the fact that Bush is circumventing the Constitution? No one wants to talk about that.
Forget I called him a fascist or a dictator. Those are just labels. What about his actions? No one seems to want to come here and defend Bush's blatant disregard for the checks and balances of government and the fact that he is completely disregarding the authority of the other branches of government.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 08-02-2006 2:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 08-02-2006 4:06 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 143 by randman, posted 08-02-2006 8:32 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 139 of 158 (337429)
08-02-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
08-02-2006 4:06 PM


Forget the descriptive words
The way I see it is that in every presidency there are always those who sound the alarm that the current president is taking us down the road to perdition. So far it hasn't happened, and eventually one tires of the alarmists and just tunes them out.
I guess I take a little shock being called an alarmist. While I certainly do think that this president has done considerable damage to this nation I also know that the history of our nation has NEVER been the primrose picture that the stereotypical American nationalism likes to believe.
I am not trying to predict the demise of anyting. All I wanted, and still do, is for some of our Bush lovers on this board to defend this particular action which seems like a blatant disregard for the Constitution. I may have put some people off by calling it "fascist" or him an "elected dictator" but that does not excuse the issue.
So far we have randman who can't stop talking about Clinton and Faith who used those words as an excuse to handwave any responsibility.
So for all you Bush supporters out there. Forget I ever called Bush a dictator or a fascist. I'll take it back and reserve my classification of the man to myself. What do you all have to say about HIS ACTIONS? Particularly the ones outlined in the OP that go against the Constitution.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 08-02-2006 4:06 PM Percy has not replied

  
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