Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Eco-Guilt
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 46 of 67 (512853)
06-21-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Legend
06-21-2009 2:45 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
No it's not.
Scroll up. You JUST said that you think it's a result of peer pressure.
When you make that claim, the unstated premise is that the conclusion is WRONG and that the people are being TRICKED.
Now, since you've gotten called out on it, you suddenly deny it? Please. At least have the dishonest courtesy of editting your original post to change it so it looks like you were saying something different in the first place.
Why are we being intimidated into accepting as undisputed 'fact' a theory which...
There you go again.
If you are going to accuse me of using strawman, you might want to get down off the scarecrow pole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Legend, posted 06-21-2009 2:45 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Legend, posted 06-21-2009 6:15 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 47 of 67 (512857)
06-21-2009 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Nuggin
06-21-2009 4:47 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Nuggin writes:
You JUST said that you think it's a result of peer pressure.
When you make that claim, the unstated premise is that the conclusion is WRONG and that the people are being TRICKED. Now, since you've gotten called out on it, you suddenly deny it?
Nope, I never claimed, implicitly or explicitly, that I believe their conclusion to be WRONG. I claimed that their conclusion is based on inadequate evidence and the theory doesn't make useful or specific enough predictions, therefore it shouldn't be assigned the same degree of credibility as other scientific theories, let alone be used to decide the future of western civilisation.
Which you went on to misrepresent as:
Nuggin writes:
[Legend's] argument is:
Since the FACTS and scientific CONSENSUS are against me, it's because there scientific community has been tricked/persuaded into supporting something which I disagree with.
See how you make it sound as if I hold a pre-conceived opinion, which I refuse to change despite the facts and the consensus? Nice try. It's because of the facts and the lack of consensus -compared to other, established theories- that I hold the opinion that external factors have influenced the scientific community. And there are thousands of scientists within this community who confirm this view. But ofcourse you would dismiss them as nutjobs living in self-denial. Allow me then to throw one of your own quotes back at you (from Message 39):
quote:
We get it. You are right and EVERYONE ELSE, no matter how educated, is wrong because YOU'RE just soooooooo much smarter than everyone else, you've seen through the trick.
I couldn't have put it better myself!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 4:47 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 6:36 PM Legend has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 48 of 67 (512858)
06-21-2009 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Legend
06-21-2009 6:15 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Nope, I never claimed, implicitly or explicitly, that I believe their conclusion to be WRONG.
Then why are you here? What's your point?
AGW isn't wrong but we STILL SHOULDN'T DO ANYTHING?
Like I said earlier (and like a good Conservative you ignored) the END RESULTS of these policies are IN AND OF THEMSELVES sufficient reasons to inact these policies.
Unless you ALSO have a problem with the conclusion that GIVING MONEY TO TERRORISTS results in TERRORISTS HAVING MONEY.
Am I jumping to conclusions there, too?
How about here? Burning coal that has mercury IN IT results in mercury in the air and later in the water.
Too fast for you?
By all means, let's not allow the concenesus of scientific thought to steer the nation in a useful and positive direction that yeilds benefits for all and harms no one. Heaven forbid.
there are thousands of scientists within this community who confirm this view
Again, please stop trying to change the conversation back to evolution vs creationism.
We are ALL aware that you can name a handful of scientists who support your views on Creationism.
They are the vocal minority who go against the consensus because NO MATTER HOW CLEAR SOMETHING IS there are ALWAYS contrarian people who can make a buck saying the opposite.
That's true for your Creationist arguments. That's true for Global Warming. That's true for the Holocaust. That's true for hollow vs solid Earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Legend, posted 06-21-2009 6:15 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Legend, posted 06-21-2009 7:05 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 49 of 67 (512861)
06-21-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Nuggin
06-21-2009 6:36 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Nuggin writes:
Then why are you here? What's your point?
I'm here because I've had enough of people like you trying to control my behaviour, limit my movement, censor my speech and restrict my freedom because they are deluded enough to believe they're the annointed saviours of the world and damn it, we will be saved whether we want it or not!
I'm here because I've had enough of people like you telling me, no...dictating to me what I should be thinking because they have the arrogance to believe they can fully understand and predict the climatic behaviour of a 4.5 billion year-old planet based on 100 years' worth of data.
I'm here because I've had enough of people like you, when unable to answer my question of "so, what percentage of the current warming is actually caused by humans?" coming up with claptrap like "err..quite a lot I suppose", or "you're a creationist/republican/conspiracy theorist, so I'm not talking to you".
That's why I'm here.
So why don't you take your Messiah syndrome and your carbon-offset guilt tokens and head back to your smug little cult so you can all go burn some SUVs or whatever it is that you're doing when you're not spewing fascist drivel on web-sites like this one!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 6:36 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2009 8:17 PM Legend has not replied
 Message 51 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 8:58 PM Legend has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 67 (512863)
06-21-2009 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Legend
06-21-2009 7:05 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
So why don't you take your Messiah syndrome and your carbon-offset guilt tokens and head back to your smug little cult so you can all go burn some SUVs or whatever it is that you're doing when you're not spewing fascist drivel on web-sites like this one!
Owned!

"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Legend, posted 06-21-2009 7:05 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 8:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 51 of 67 (512864)
06-21-2009 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Legend
06-21-2009 7:05 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
I'm here because I've had enough of people like you trying to control my behaviour, limit my movement, censor my speech and restrict my freedom
You sound like a child throwing a fit because you don't want to take a bath.
Time to grow up and act like an adult. You don't get to have everything your way every time because you want it that way.
We have a problem. WE. If you don't want to deal with it, then expect to get penalized because the rest of us sure as shit aren't going to carry your fat lazy ass for you.
And I don't want to hear you bitching about how expensive gas is, or how it's too hot, or how food prices have gone up 200% because the lower water table has just cut off half our food production.
...based on 100 years' worth of data.
Oh, I get it. You're mad because you haven't bothered to read ANYTHING about it.
And this is different than a Creationist how exactly?
Do you HONESTLY believe that climatologists literally only have information since 1909? Have you ignored Mini's post about how they determine temps back thousands of years? Have you even heard of ice cores?
What am I saying? If the Bible doesn't say Global Warming is happening, then it's not happening. Right?
when unable to answer my question of "so, what percentage of the current warming is actually caused by humans?"
50%. It's 50%.
There. Happy? No? Oh right, because NO MATTER WHAT NUMBER YOU ARE TOLD YOU WILL DISREGARD IT.
That's because you are contrarian. We get it.
I swear, it's like arguing with a child.
If you are running your air conditioner, don't leave the windows open. Can I tell you want percentage electricity you are wasting by having your windows open? No.
"Well, if you can't tell me with certainty to the 15th decimal place, then it's not true. And I'm not going to eat my veggies."
Yawn.
Alright, Timmy. You win. You're a big boy. You don't have to do anything. Go buy gas and pour it in a river. Good for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Legend, posted 06-21-2009 7:05 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Legend, posted 06-22-2009 7:38 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 52 of 67 (512865)
06-21-2009 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2009 8:17 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
sigh.
Hyro, seriously. Do you have ANYTHING to actually add? What's the problem here? Forgot to Tivo "Fox and Friends"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2009 8:17 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2009 9:38 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 67 (512867)
06-21-2009 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Nuggin
06-21-2009 8:59 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Hyro, seriously. Do you have ANYTHING to actually add? What's the problem here? Forgot to Tivo "Fox and Friends"?
I just knew it would turn in to a debate about global warming instead of what it was supposed to be about. So now I'm bored. The global warming debate is just so back and forth with no ground gained, honestly. Not to mention how subjective it is. Futile...

"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 8:59 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 10:40 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 63 by fgarb, posted 06-23-2009 12:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 54 of 67 (512873)
06-21-2009 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2009 9:38 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
I just knew it would turn in to a debate about global warming instead of what it was supposed to be about. So now I'm bored. The global warming debate is just so back and forth with no ground gained, honestly. Not to mention how subjective it is. Futile...
Futile, yes. Subjective, no.
The earth is heating up. Period.
Even these deniers can no longer deny that. Though, if you asked them 5-10 years ago, they'd claim that it was "one or two hot years".
Basically it comes down to an ideological debate.
There are people out there who see a problem coming and want to do something about it which may be a little tough.
There are people out there who simply don't care if they cause harm to others so long as their H2s have room for both of their Big Gulps.
At their core, it's really just Christian fundamentalism driving the conservative movement. "It's the End Times so live it up".
Why bother conserving fossil fuel? There's NO WAY we'll be able to use it all before Jesus comes back in 2010.
Why not hunt down and kill the last X? It's just going to die when the rapture comes anyway.
Why bother educating kids? The only lurnin' they need to do is whut gets lurned from the Bible.
Obviously there's no way I'm going to convince a conservative that the rapture isn't coming. All I ask is that they ruin the planet QUIETLY rather than try and PREVENT PEOPLE from doing the right thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2009 9:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 55 of 67 (512902)
06-22-2009 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Nuggin
06-21-2009 8:58 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Nuggin writes:
We have a problem. WE
No, YOU have a problem. YOUR problem is that Communism died in the 1980s and National Socialism has been dead for 60 years so Environmentalism is YOUR last means left for controlling the masses.
Nuggin writes:
If you don't want to deal with it, then expect to get penalized
Wow...and just who exactly appointed you as the Punisher?! Are you the new Commisar for making sure people fall in line? Maybe you already thought about putting 'deniers' in special camps with barbed wire and pillboxes and everything. Environmentalism ber Alles!!
Nuggin writes:
And this is different than a Creationist how exactly?
Creationists believe unquestionably what their annointed authorities tell them. Just like you do.
Nuggin writes:
Do you HONESTLY believe that climatologists literally only have information since 1909
YES. Regular temperature measurements begun in the 1850s and didn't become widespread until the 20th century. So at best we have measurements for the last 160 years. If you think otherwise now's the time to show why. If you can't, then please refrain from making incredulous statements like the one above.
Nuggin writes:
If the Bible doesn't say Global Warming is happening, then it's not happening. Right?
I don't know or care about what the Bible says about global warming. You're the religious type. You tell me.
Legend writes:
what percentage of the current warming is actually caused by humans?
Nuggin writes:
50%. It's 50%.
....you didn't just pull this number out of your arse, did you....?? Oh yes..you did.
If you are running your air conditioner, don't leave the windows open. Can I tell you want percentage electricity you are wasting by having your windows open? No.
No you can't. Yet you still vehemently claim that if I don't shut the windows RIGHT NOW the car will explode, and that I should start breathing at a lower rate to offset the energy wasted by having the windows open, or else I'll get penalised and that maybe if I send a cheque to the car manufacturer they can make a car with no windows and no air-conditioning and that everyone agrees with this idea and if they don't they're just a bunch of nutty creationists who don't know what they're talking about.
I rest my case.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Nuggin, posted 06-21-2009 8:58 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Nuggin, posted 06-22-2009 11:32 AM Legend has replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 56 of 67 (512923)
06-22-2009 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by fgarb
06-21-2009 5:57 AM


Interesting
fgarb writes:
Perhaps you are right that the same process that is bringing us out of an ice age is also somehow causing a sudden temperature fluctuation upwards in the last century (since our oceans have not boiled off I can't believe that our current rate of warming has been sustained since the previous ice age).
You are quite correct. This is why I emphasized the necessity of more data so as to establish a trend. To simply have a snapshot of the last 200 years and conclude the same has been happening is silly. It is akin to a medical professional seeing a patient's heart rate jump from 60bpm to 80bpm in 2 seconds, and using that data alone in considering that the patient's heart rate will be 680bpm in 30 more seconds.
fgarb writes:
That would be quite coincidental for it to just happen to coincide with the time when we are producing enormous quantities of heat trapping gases.
Indeed. It could be a coincidence. (Though unlikely) How do we know it isn't? What data are you using to determine that this same domino effect hasn't occurred in the past, only to revert to cooling once more?
fgarb writes:
Clearly both are true. CO2 reflects infrared radiation back to the earth's surface and produces a warming effect. Simple physics.
Which I don't think anyone has disputed here.
fgarb writes:
Similarly, warming the earth causes CO2 to be released from the oceans.
Indeed. The next question would be: "What is the quantity of CO2 and Methane that is released upon x temperature increase?"
I once had a creationist try to tell me the Sun is burning 500,000 tons of hydrogen a second, so clearly it would have burned out by now. Sadly his conclusion failed in that it had insufficient data in it's formula. He had forgotten to insert what the Sun's mass is. Once that was inserted, it became quite clear that the Sun can have been converting Hydrogen through fusion for several billion years, and still have several billion more years to go.
This is the same thing that I feel is occurring in the "Human caused Global Warming" camp.
fgarb writes:
The difference is that this time around we are pumping far more CO2 into the atmosphere than the ocean has released in any of the recent warming spells.
I have tried to find hard (numerical/graph) data on this very thing, and have yet to do so.
Where are you acquiring your data from to make this statement, and why are you not providing it to me/us? (See above statement)
Edited by Michamus, : clarity/typos

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by fgarb, posted 06-21-2009 5:57 AM fgarb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Nuggin, posted 06-22-2009 11:41 AM Michamus has replied
 Message 64 by fgarb, posted 06-23-2009 1:23 AM Michamus has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 57 of 67 (512925)
06-22-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Legend
06-22-2009 7:38 AM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
YOUR problem is that Communism died in the 1980s
So we say, "Hey, please stop poisoning people" and your response is "You're a communist."
God, you are a fucking child. Heaven forbid you get asked to clean up after yourself, you throw a fucking tantrum.
"Bwwaaaaah! I wanna have free gasoline!!!! It's NOT FAIR that I can't take a dump on everyone else!!!! BWAAAAH"
Go ahead, bitch all you want. You ALREADY LOST. We're going to do the right thing whether or not you approve.
Got a problem with it? I hear China has some nice brown skies for you, get the F out of the country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Legend, posted 06-22-2009 7:38 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Legend, posted 06-22-2009 12:14 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 58 of 67 (512927)
06-22-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Michamus
06-22-2009 11:15 AM


Re: Interesting
fgarb writes:
Clearly both are true. CO2 reflects infrared radiation back to the earth's surface and produces a warming effect. Simple physics.
Which I don't think anyone has disputed here.
So, you don't dispute that CO2 does cause greenhouse. And you CAN'T dispute that humans increase CO2.
So, what you have left is this: "We don't know if humans cause 1% of the CO2 or 99% of the CO2, therefore we should do nothing"
That's RETARDED.
The actions necessary to reduce CO2 emissions are UNIVERSALLY POSITIVE IN ALL ASPECTS!
If humans were responsible for .000000000000001% of the CO2 we should STILL stop releasing mercury vapors into the air. We should STILL stop stripmining the entire state of WV. We should STILL stop handing hundreds of billions of dollars over to terrorist nations. We should STILL strive to have cars that get more mpg. We should STILL find ways to make jet more effecient.
There's NO downside.
The ONLY people who are complaining are guys like Legend who get made any time anyone suggests they have to get off their fat ass and do anything.
If humans are adding ANY CO2, and you KNOW that they are, to the system - then we should strive to reduce our input.
If humans are removing CO2 sinks FROM the system, and you KNOW that they are - then we should strive to replace them.
It's THAT simple. It doesn't matter if we're solely responsible or partially responsible, or simply exasperating the situation.
"I don't want to clean my room" is a child's argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Michamus, posted 06-22-2009 11:15 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Michamus, posted 06-24-2009 5:23 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 59 of 67 (512929)
06-22-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nuggin
06-22-2009 11:32 AM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Nuggin writes:
We're going to do the right thing whether or not you approve.
Nuggin writes:
Got a problem with it? I hear China has some nice brown skies for you, get the F out of the country.
TO ALL ENVIROMENTALISTS OUT THERE:
That's why you're going to lose this war. Whatever validity your argument holds just evaporates when statements like the above are made in public.
TO NUGGIN:
Yavol mein kommandant!
Now go wear your brown shirt and go out to burn some cars or something.
TO EVERYONE ELSE:
In previous posts I stated that National Socialism is dead. Nuggin kindly reminded me that this isn't the case. Nazism is well and spreading, it just happens to go by a different name nowadays.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Nuggin, posted 06-22-2009 11:32 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Huntard, posted 06-22-2009 12:49 PM Legend has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 60 of 67 (512932)
06-22-2009 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Legend
06-22-2009 12:14 PM


Re: eco-fascism in action!
Legend writes:
Yavol mein kommandant
That should be:
Jawohl mein Kommandant!
Just so you know, for the future.
And for the rest, could we please get back on topic?
Nuggin what do you think of the people and governments that use this "eco-scare" as a way to make some quick bucks. See for example my example where they taxed the planes and then took it away again.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Legend, posted 06-22-2009 12:14 PM Legend has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024