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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 327 (364751)
11-19-2006 1:38 PM


Oddly enough I was tagged in another thread as a creationist and biology hater because I questioned the need for childhood vaccinations. So I’m presenting my reasons, which have no basis in religion, for questioning the system.
This debate, should you choose to participate, is strictly science. No faith or value issues. Just the facts.
Here are the types of healing available to us today.
Allopathy (MD): A method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
Naturopathy (ND): A system of therapeutics in which surgery and prescription medications are avoided, and preparations such as vitamins, nutritional supplements, and herbs are used to treat and prevent disease.
Naturopathic Doctors
Naturopathic doctors -- who carry an N.D. behind their name -- focus on the whole health of patients and emphasize the use of diet, exercise, nutritional supplements and herbal therapies to help prevent disease and to promote wellness. They attend accredited, four-year graduate level naturopathic medical schools to become primary-care practitioners, but have a more limited scope of practice than do medical doctors. They receive the same basic sciences as an M.D., but also study clinical nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathic and botanical medicine and psychology. They do not go through residency programs, but must pass rigorous national and state boards to practice.
Homeopathy: A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy persons similar to those of the disease.
Now to discuss childhood vaccinations
Vaccination is the process of administering weakened or dead pathogens to a healthy person or animal, with the intent of conferring immunity against a targeted form of a related disease agent. It succeeded and is distinct from inoculation.
We have been lead to believe that vaccinating our children is necessary to protect them and to stop the spread of various diseases.
MMR/MR - Measles, Mumps, and Rubella
Measles - Vaccinations for measles was implemented in 1968. Death from measles had already declined by 99% before the vaccination was implemented according to the graph.
The decline may be more the result of nutritional and hygienic improvements.
We are also getting feedback concerning generational complications.
Babies of Vaccinated Mothers More Susceptible to Measles
Mumps - Considered beneficial Had the vaccination and had the mumps.
"Mumps is a common childhood disease which is benign in the in the vast majority of cases. It is desirable that mumps be contracted in early childhood because, when contracted in adulthood, the disease may cause meningitis and/or damage to the testes, ovaries, auditory nerves or pancreas. However, and equally importantly, women are less likely to contract ovarian cancer if they have had mumps during childhood (West 1966)."---Viera Scheibner, Ph.D.
In 1992 the MMR vaccine had to be withdrawn because the mumps portion was proven unsafe.
Rubella (German Measles) is more of a concern for pregnant women, not children. The vaccination prevents young girls from acquiring natural immunity in childhood, but leaves them susceptible to the disease when an adult and possibly pregnant.
DTP - Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis
Diphtheria - Is more a result of unsanitary conditions and poor nutrition.
Tetanus - Develops from an infection resulting from trauma.
Pertussis - This one seems to be on the rise again.
There have been cases of children dying from vaccinations, granted that's not the majority, but there are also studies that autism is also caused.
In the naturopathic realm the balance of the body is crucial. Vaccinations and antibiotics can put the body in an imbalance. We may not see the effects immediately following the vaccination, but they are surfacing. Naturopaths are trying to look at the underlying problems or causes, not just fixing the symptoms.
Now given that I live in the rural Midwest and am probably within the upper middle class, I really have to look at whether my child is really at risk for these diseases. I have to weigh the possible side effects based on my lifestyle and what I have learned about the cause of these diseases.
10 Misconceptions about Immunizations
Obviously these people disagree, what is an end user to do? Who to trust? I'm an average person with a layman's knowledge of science and medicine. Ultimately I have to decide whose info to trust.
So if you are for vaccinations, present your facts, but no ranting please.
NOTE: This debate, should you choose to participate, is strictly science or tangible evidence we have available to us. No faith or value issues. No religious doctrines or preaching. Just the facts.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.
Edited by purpledawn, : Fix Link
Edited by purpledawn, : Fix Another Link

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AdminSchraf
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Message 2 of 327 (364841)
11-20-2006 7:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 3 of 327 (364847)
11-20-2006 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
11-19-2006 1:38 PM


quack quack!
How does this:
quote:
This debate, should you choose to participate, is strictly science. No faith or value issues. Just the facts.
go with this?
quote:
Homeopathy: A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy persons similar to those of the disease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 11-19-2006 1:38 PM purpledawn has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 4 of 327 (364853)
11-20-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
11-19-2006 1:38 PM


What irony.
Homeopathy: A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy persons similar to those of the disease.
and
Now to discuss childhood vaccinations
It seems we have people who promote homeopathy, yet reject vaccination. But, in my opinion, vaccination fits the definition of homeopathy, and it may be the only homeopathy-like method that actually works.
Vaccination is a means of getting the body's natural defenses to work for you. It seems to me that those who favor natural approaches to medicine ought to be strong supporters of vaccination.

Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 327 (364854)
11-20-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by CK
11-20-2006 7:48 AM


Re: quack quack!
The topic is childhood vaccinations, please don't waste posts on inane questions that do nothing to further the point of the discussion.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 327 (364855)
11-20-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
11-20-2006 8:57 AM


quote:
Vaccination is a means of getting the body's natural defenses to work for you.
But do they? That is the issue, not homeopathy. Homeopathy just happens to be one of our options for healing.
The information I provided shows that vaccinations may not be doing what they are supposed to do.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 327 (364857)
11-20-2006 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
11-20-2006 9:05 AM


quote:
Homeopathy just happens to be one of our options for healing.
Are you going to include Theraputic Touch, Pyramid Power, and witch doctors to the list alongside Homeopathy?
The reason I ask is because if any of them work, it's for the same reason; the placebo effect.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 8 of 327 (364858)
11-20-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
11-19-2006 1:38 PM


quote:
In the naturopathic realm the balance of the body is crucial. Vaccinations and antibiotics can put the body in an imbalance.
Define "balance".
Define "imbalance".

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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 9 of 327 (364859)
11-20-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
11-20-2006 8:57 AM


I see what you are saying but even more irony, when you consider that Homeopathy doesn't match it's own definition...

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 10 of 327 (364860)
11-20-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
11-20-2006 9:05 AM


But do they? That is the issue, not homeopathy.
The evidence supporting vaccination is incontrovertible.
Sure, the natural immunity that derives from actually getting the disease might be even more effective than the induced immunity from vaccination. Perhaps vaccination is not important for mild diseases. Maybe the chicken pox party was a better idea. But for diseases that possibly can have serious complications, vaccinations are to be valued.
I had measles as a child. Fortunately, there was no permanent damage. But it is a risky disease. I also had chicken pox, and that was a much milder disease even though I had an unusually severe case of it. There was a time when people would try to have their children get infected with chicken pox and German measles (rubella), because of the immunity that conferred. But I don't recall people ever suggesting deliberate infection with measles - the disease is too risky for that.
I grew up at a time when polio was a concern. At that time, it was called "infantile paralysis." Many suffered. The Salk polio vaccine stopped the epidemic in its tracks. I'm not sure how anyone could deny the value of such vaccination.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 327 (364861)
11-20-2006 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by nwr
11-20-2006 9:25 AM


And don't forget, smallpox, another disease that used to be feared, has now been eradicated.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 12 of 327 (364862)
11-20-2006 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
11-19-2006 1:38 PM


I'm an average person with a layman's knowledge of science and medicine. Ultimately I have to decide whose info to trust.
Personally I'd trust the scientific and medical establishment with its system of checks and balances, stringent oversight and peer review in numerous journals over a website which looks like it was put together with lynx and has a very obvious axe to grind.
An argument where your 'strictly science or tangible evidence' amounts in large part to web links to a source which is secondary at best seems to be exactly equivalent to a creationist coming here and posting 10 different links to the arguments they liked best at Answers in Genesis.
Just to address one specific claim.
In 1992 the MMR vaccine had to be withdrawn because the mumps portion was proven unsafe.
The Urabe strain of mumps vaccine used in one of the earlier forms of MMR did produce incidents of aseptic meningitis(AM), but the rate of AM is lower than in the case of mumps infection (Bonnet et al., 2006). It is a side effect of being a form of mumps, not of being a vaccine.
TTFN,
WK

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 327 (364866)
11-20-2006 9:43 AM


autism-sorry, long
There is actually no credible link between vaccinations and autism, according to the major studies I've seen.
From quackwatch.com
Some parents of children with autism believe that there is a link between measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism.
However, there is no sensible reason to believe that any vaccine can cause autism or any kind of behavioral disorder. Typically, symptoms of autism are first noted by parents as their child begins to have difficulty with delays in speaking after age one. MMR vaccine is first given to children at 12-15 months of age. Since this is also an age when autism commonly becomes apparent, it is not surprising that autism follows MMR immunization in some cases. However, by far the most logical explanation is coincidence, not cause-and-effect.
If measles vaccine or any other vaccine causes autism, it would have to be a very rare occurrence, because millions of children have received vaccines without ill health effects. The only "evidence" linking MMR vaccine and autism was published in the British journal Lancet in 1998 . An editorial published in the same issue, however, discussed concerns about the validity of the study . Based on data from 12 patients, Dr. Andrew Wakefield (a British gastroenterologist) and colleagues speculated that MMR vaccine may have been the possible cause of bowel problems which led to a decreased absorption of essential vitamins and nutrients which resulted in developmental disorders like autism. No scientific analyses were reported, however, to substantiate the theory. Whether this series of 12 cases represent an unusual or unique clinical syndrome is difficult to judge without knowing the size of the patient population and time period over which the cases were identified.
If there happened to be selective referral of patients with autism to the researchers' practice, for example, the reported case series may simply reflect such referral bias. Moreover, the theory that autism may be caused by poor absorption of nutrients due to bowel inflammation is senseless and is not supported by the clinical data. In at least 4 of the 12 cases, behavioral problems appeared before the onset of symptoms of inflammatory bowel disease. Furthermore, since publication of their original report in February of 1998, Wakefield and colleagues have published another study in which highly specific laboratory assays in patients with inflammatory bowel disease, the posited mechanism for autism after MMR vaccination, were negative for measles virus .
Other recent investigations also do not support a causal association between MMR (or other measles-containing vaccines) and autism or inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) . In one investigation, a Working Party on MMR Vaccine of the United Kingdom's Committee on Safety of Medicines (1999) was charged with the evaluation of several hundred reports, collected by a firm of lawyers, of autism, Crohn's disease, or similar disorders developing after receipt of MMR or MR vaccines. The Working Party conducted a systematic, standardized review of parental and physician information. Although acknowledging that it is impossible to prove or refute the suggested associations (because of variable data quality, biased selection of cases, and lack of a control group), the Working Party concluded that the information available "... did not support the suggested causal associations or give cause for concern about the safety of MMR or MR vaccines." In March 2000, a Medical Research Council report concludes that between March 1998 and September 1999 no new evidence had suggested a causal link between MMR and autism or IBD . The American Medical Association has reached the same conclusion.
A study by Taylor and colleagues provides population-based evidence that overcomes many of the limitations faced by the Working Party and by Wakefield and colleagues . The authors identified all 498 known cases of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) in certain districts of London born in 1979 or later and linked them to an independent regional vaccination registry. ASD includes classical autism, atypical autism, and Asperger's syndrome, but the results were similar when cases of classical autism were analyzed separately. The authors noted:
The first diagnosis of autism or initial signs of behavioral regression were not more likely to occur within time periods following vaccination than during other time periods.
A study of the population of children in two communities in Sweden also found no evidence of an association between MMR vaccination and autism . That study found no difference in the prevalence of autism in children born after the introduction of MMR vaccination in Sweden compared with children born before.
In January 1990, an Institute of Medicine committee examining possible health effects associated with DPT vaccine concluded that there was no evidence to indicate a causal relation between DPT vaccine or the pertussis component of DPT vaccine and autism . Also, data obtained from CDC's Monitoring System for Adverse Events Following Immunization (MASAEFI) system, showed no reports of autism occurring within 28 days of DPT immunization from 1978-1990, a period in which approximately 80.1 million doses of DPT vaccine were administered in the United States. From January 1990 through February 1998, only 15 cases of autism behavior disorder after immunization were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS). Because of the small number of reports over an 8-year period, the cases reported are likely to represent unrelated chance occurrences that happened around the time of vaccination.
The most frequent vaccines cited in the reports were diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (DPT), oral polio vaccine (OPV), and MMR. Other vaccines reported as having a possible association with autism were Haemophilus influenzae type B and Hepatitis B.
Although the possible association with MMR vaccine has received much public and political attention and there are many who have derived their own conclusions based on personal experiences, the available evidence does not support the hypothesis that MMR vaccine causes autism or associated disorders or IBD. Separate administration of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines to children provides no benefit over administration of the combination MMR vaccine and would result in delayed or missed immunizations.

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 327 (364873)
11-20-2006 10:16 AM


tentative devil's advocate
It seems to me if we are restricted to the confines of pure cost/benefit analysis, using only modern western liberal calculus then its hard to argue that vaccinations are not a person's preferred option. But since this appears to be the limit of the discussion, I'll give defending PD's position a whirl, if just for the benefits of exercise...
It is hard to argue against the efficacy of vaccination as a method. I think nwr was dead on noting that homeopathy supporters ought to be at least sympathetic to the methods of vaccination. Essentially the difference between the two is what they use to spur the immune response, or grant resistance.
Statistically it has proven itself, if only because it has been the most studied.
The larger problem, and I think this is where vaccination became an "issue", is forced vaccination programs. That is to say prophylactic programs when there is no current factual risk of exposure to a contagion.
By being vaccinated one voluntarily enters a realm of risk. Though the risks may be small, some are there. Without vaccination one does not automatically face the statistical risks posed for example on that chart at PDs link. One would first have to be exposed to the actual contagion which itself is a statistical risk, which may be alleviated using OTHER methods.
Tetanus for example certainly can be avoided throughout a lifetime with proper care and hygiene. Careful planning and quarantine could also prevent issues like mumps, and measles, and chicken pox.
Its not like most of these are just floating around waiting to attach to someone. They normally involve a vector which means they can be avoided, lessening risk of contact, before we even get to risk after contraction.
It might make more sense to not use vaccines until a rise in incidents threatens to become a more serious outbreak. At that time, exposing onesself to the risk from the vaccine becomes more plausible as a comparable tradeoff.
As nwr suggests, for some actual exposure using direct contact with the contagion, may make more sense anyway. Though whether kids will respond in kind ala South Park is open to question.
Is there a reason why preventative measures (outside prophylactic pre-emptive exposure), as well as better treatment of infections, could not be an equally viable solution? What is the exact trade off in statistical numbers which would make one better than another?
Edited by holmes, : current

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 15 of 327 (364879)
11-20-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
11-19-2006 1:38 PM


All quotes are from Wikipedia. First, some general background:
Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively common and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis). Complications are usually more severe amongst adults who catch the virus.
The fatality rate from measles for otherwise healthy people in developed countries is low: approximately 1 death per thousand cases. In underdeveloped nations with high rates of malnutrition and poor healthcare, fatality rates of 10 percent are common. In immunocompromised patients, the fatality rate is approximately 30 percent. Measles is estimated to kill 674,000 people in developing countries annually.[1]
In developed countries, most children are immunised against measles at the age of 18 months, generally as part of a three-part MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, and rubella). The vaccination is generally not given earlier than this because children younger than 18 months usually retain anti-measles immunoglobulins (antibodies) transmitted from the mother during pregnancy. A "booster" vaccine is then given between the ages of four and five. Vaccination rates have been high enough to make measles relatively uncommon. Even a single case in a college dormitory or similar setting is often met with a local vaccination program, in case any of the people exposed are not already immune. In developing countries, measles remains common.
The recent vaccine controversy in the United Kingdom regarding a potential link between the combined MMR vaccine (vaccinating children from mumps, measles and rubella) and autism has prompted a resurgence in popularity of the "measles party", where parents deliberately infect the child with measles in order to build up the child's immunity without requiring an injection. This practice poses many health risks to the child, and has been discouraged by the National Health Service.[1]
Measles is a significant infectious disease because, while the rate of complications is not high, the disease itself is so infectious that the sheer number of people who would suffer complications in an outbreak amongst non-immune people would quickly overwhelm available hospital resources. If vaccination rates fall, the number of non-immune persons in the community rises, and the risk of an outbreak of measles consequently rises.
According to the World Health Organization (WHO), measles is a leading cause of vaccine preventable childhood mortality”there are 30 million cases and 875,000 deaths caused by measles every year.[2] The WHO and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) reports that the global immunization drive has cut measles deaths by nearly half between 1999 and 2004 (from 871,000 in 1999 to an estimated 454,000 in 2004), "thanks to major national immunization activities and better access to routine childhood immunization".[3]
My analysis
Measles per se is not usually a fatal disease: complications are the most common cause of mortality following measles infection. No doubt improved nutrition increased the baseline health of populations in developed nations, leading to improved resistance to those complications.
But the pre-vaccine improvement in survival rates can be better ascribed to the development of antibiotics to combat the common incidence of pneumonia in measles victims, the development of IV hydration with electrolyte repletion to support those stricken by the severe diarrhea often associated with measles, and the development of therapeutic agents to combat the effects of panencephalitis: all of these were products of the "allopathic medicine" that naturopaths and homeopaths hold in such low regards. In addition, the germ theory of disease, only widely accepted in the early 20th century, led to the common practice of quarantine procedures.
The graph of measles incidence in the UK is problematic for several reasons. The large Y axis increments (2000) maximize the apparent X axis flattening of the incidence curve. It is important to note that the average number of deaths in the UK in the 1960s prior to the use of the vaccine was ~100--by 1979, the last year offered in the chart--that number was 6. Since the fatality rate for measles in developed nations is 1 in 1000 cases, we can extrapolate that the use of the vaccine led to a decline in measles incidence of from 100,000 cases in 1960 to 6,000 cases in 1979. I suspect the number now is even lower. Focusing on a single nation's historical experience is increasingly irrelevant in a global health dynamic.
We should also keep in mind that death is not the only possible deleterious effect of diseases such as measles; the 20th century surge in life expectancies in the developed world is in part ascribable to the reduced incidence of "childhood diseases." Further, the UK was already enjoying the benefit of measles vaccine use in other nations, as the introduction of the virus by international travelers had already been curtailed beginning in 1963.
I'd also point out that measles, like influenza, is a disease that commonly occurs in periodic epidemics, and this graph chooses to open with a period of epidemic heights whose recurrence vaccine use prevented.
The use of measles mortality in the UK to assert the lack of necessity for vacccines in general is also misleading because of the low mortality rate in developed nations. The picture in less developed nations, where governments already unenthusiastic about spending on national health programs use the voices of Western vaccine skeptics to justify their inaction: the same borrowing of Western pseudoscience regarding HIV has made that disease even more of a scourge in many Afrian nations.
Africa has also experienced localized surges in polio outbreaks because of religion-fanned fears that the vaccine itself is an agent of genocide. Thus, specious opposition to vaccines in developed nations creates an ever larger population of unprotected people while simultaneously maintaining a large reservoir of the virus in undeveloped nations.
Eventually, this discussion will come down to a public policy crux, a collision between parental rights and objectively demonstrated common good. If we grant that parents have an absolute right to decline vaccinations for their children, what shall we say about the right of society to be protected from these morally innocent potential disease carriers? Vaccines are not 100% effective, and the disruption of transmission by universal vaccination is an important element.
Where does the parental right to decline vaccinations end and the right not to associate with a potential carrier begin? Is a religious exception to mandatory vaccination reasonable? Should a parent have the right to impose risk upon other parents' children?

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