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Author Topic:   Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 316 of 327 (427416)
10-11-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Kitsune
10-11-2007 10:30 AM


Re: Vaccinations for public health?
LindaLou writes:
I don't know why my link didn't work. This one should. It is the list of vaccine ingredients on the CDC website.
I read the list of ingredients.
How about mine:
1. Had any biscuits lately? Baking Powder...Sodium Aluminum Sulphate NaAl(SO4)2, Cream of tartar KHC4H4O6, Baking Soda NaHCO3...watch out for that Aluminum and that Potassium.
2. Take multivitamines? Aluminum, Potassium, Copper, Selenium, Chromium, Molybdenum, Iodine and others
Let's not forget Dihydro Oxide that has been shown to cause hundreds of deaths a year in the US yet remains completely unregulated as to the amount that can be put into your food.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by molbiogirl, posted 10-11-2007 12:00 PM LinearAq has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 317 of 327 (427418)
10-11-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by nator
10-11-2007 10:07 AM


LL and Evidence
LL, here is an excellent article that examines the evidence we have been discussing. Please do not reject it out of hand becasue it is a skeptical source. It is a well-referenced article and is balanced. Please read this.
Nator, Lindalou won't give this any credence.
Anyone from Apache HTTP Server Test Page powered by CentOS or Home Page | Quackwatch is a member of the Evil Scientists' Worldwide Conspiracy®.
Lindalou will, on the other hand, give great credence to a site such as Nexus.
From the Nexus site:
NEXUS is an international bi-monthly alternative news magazine, covering the fields of: Health Alternatives; Suppressed Science; Earth's Ancient Past; UFOs & the Unexplained; and Government Cover-Ups.
I'm afraid we're rather at an impasse.
Lindalou asks for studies.
studies have demonstrated that the vaccines clearly have nothing to do with the rise, but rather more ready diagnosis.
Cite them please, and give links so that I can look them up.
it's hereditary.
Source?
a genetically sourced subarrousal of the frontal lobe.
Source?
Lindalou can't read these studies but she wants us to provide them.
I don't see how we can debate a woman who asks for evidence that she can't evaluate.
Edited by molbiogirl, : quotes

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 318 of 327 (427420)
10-11-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by LinearAq
10-11-2007 11:47 AM


Vaccine Ingredients
Had any biscuits lately? Baking Powder...Sodium Aluminum Sulphate NaAl(SO4)2, Cream of tartar KHC4H4O6, Baking Soda NaHCO3...watch out for that Aluminum and that Potassium.
Nice one, Linear. Unfortunately, LL will simply respond:
I don't eat evil biscuits as they aggravate my (insert self diagnosis).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by LinearAq, posted 10-11-2007 11:47 AM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 319 of 327 (427428)
10-11-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Kitsune
10-11-2007 10:26 AM


Re: Relevant Recent News about Vaccination Policies
alright, you want source on the common fucking (don't fucking censor me. it'll just make me cuss all the hell more.) knowledge of ADHD being hereditary and having to do with the arousal of the frontal lobe.
ok here goes. some of these have session ids in the addresses, so i've tried to post the titles so you can find them as the link will probably break.
Biochemical markers and genetic research of ADHD.
The research of only some candidate genes (DRD4, DAT, DRD5, DBH, 5HTT, HTR1B and SNAP25) brought relatively consistent results confirming the heredity of ADHD syndromes.
factsheet
Causes of ADHD: Although an increasing amount of research indicates that attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder is the result of a disorder of the brain, so many factors might contribute to it that no single cause is likely to be identified soon. Contributing factors can be divided into (1) psychological causes and (2) environmental causes (IDEA 2004, Friend).
— Physiological Causes- research has explored heredity as a cause in ADHD. It has been found that children whose parents have ADHD are three times more likely to have this disorder that other children (IDEA 2004, Friend).
— Brain differences have also been investigated to cause ADHD. The prefrontal cortex, cerebellum, and the basal ganglia have been found to function differently in individuals with ADHD.
ADHD Prescriptions Run in Families
now, assuming you don't think we're all just druggies...
Like previous studies showing the increasing use of these medications by adults, the study found that in families with both a parent and a child who started to take an ADHD medication during 2005, 41 percent of the time it was the parent filling the prescription first, followed by the parent's filling the prescription for the child.
The study also found a striking correlation between mother and child: in households where both a parent and child began treatment for the first time in 2005, nearly 60 percent of the time it was mother and child, rather than father and child. The average age of the parent beginning ADHD medication was 43 years, while the average age of children beginning treatment was 13 years.
Further findings showed that in families where at least one parent and one child were concurrently taking an ADHD medication, the likelihood of a second child taking the medication was double that of families where the parent was not on the drug.
"Heredity has long been suggested as a cause of ADHD, but this is the first study of significant magnitude to confirm the theory," said Robert Epstein, M.D., Medco's chief medical officer. "These results establish a clear link between parents and children in the use of ADHD medications and, most surprisingly, between mother and child."
Genetic Effects on ADHD Symptomatology in 7- to 13-Year-Old Twins: Results from a Telephone Survey
Model-fitting results suggested that ADHD symptomatology is highly heritable and influenced mostly by additive genetic, specific environmental, and contrast effects. However, this analysis could not exclude with statistical significance additional effects from dominance. The results of the best-fitting bivariate model suggested that the genetic correlation between the two traits is 50% and replicated previous findings of a common genetic factor influencing the comorbidity of ADHD and ODD/CD symptomatologies.
Does the Definition of ADHD Affect Heritability?
Broadly defined pervasive ADHD appears to be as heritable as ADHD behaviors defined by maternal reports alone. A common genetic factor influences maternally rated and teacher-rated ADHD but does not account for all of the genetic variance for teacher-rated ADHD. ADHD symptom scores are highly heritable, and maternal contrast effects appear to vary for different measures.
ADHD in Adulthood: A Guide to Current Theory, Diagnosis, and Treatment
book warning. but, it's by johns hopkins press, so it's a REAL book.
The introductory chapter provides a scholarly overview of the literature on ADHD, addressing key issues, including the clinical course of the disorder in adolescence and adulthood and adult outcomes of children with ADHD, diagnostic features and criteria for ADHD in adulthood, associated symptoms common in adult ADHD but not included in the diagnostic criteria, effects of ADHD on employment and other realms of adult functioning, gender differences in the presentation of ADHD, and roles for biological, genetic, and environmental determinants in the etiology of ADHD.
No Evidence of Sleep Apnea in Children with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
There were no sleep abnormalities in the ADHD children that could be responsible for, or contributing to, the disorder.
Frontal Lobe Functioning in Boys With Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
this study examines the differences between boys with adhd and boys with frontal lobe injuries.
Prior attempts to relate attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) to frontal
lobe dysfunction have yielded mixed results. The present study attempted to minimize
several methodological problems that may have contributed to these inconsisten
cies. A relatively large sample of rigorously defined ADHD boys (n = 66) and
controls (n = 64) at two different age levels were administered a battery of neuro
psychological tests sensitive to frontal damage in adults. ADHD boys were inferior
to controls on a Vigilance task, Stroop, FAS, Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure, and
Porteus Mazes. The groups did not differ on Trail Making or on aspects of Wis
consin Card Sorting sensitive to cognitive flexibility. ADHD boys and controls were
comparable on several control tasks. Both groups showed a developmental advance
in skills implicating prefrontal cortex between ages 6 to 8 and ages 9 to 11. but
the relative deficit of the ADHD children appeared stable during this period. It is
suggested that a longitudinal study would assist the interpretation of resemblances
and differences between ADHD boys and adults with known frontal lobe impairment.
Perform ance of Children with ADHD on Tests Sensitive to Frontal Lobe Dysfunction.
The performances of 20 children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) were compared with those of 20 matched normal controls on a battery of neuropsychological tests. The ADHD children exhibited impaired function in reading comprehension, verbal learning and memory, and on the Information, Arithmetic, Digit Span, Block Design, and Coding subtests of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children-Revised, but they performed nearly normally on measures of verbal and design fluency and on the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test. The hypothesis that disturbances in frontal lobe function related to impulse control may be responsible for the cognitive impairments observed in ADHD was not supported. Inability to control and direct attention appears to be more central to the pathophysiology of this disorder.
huh. how about that. maybe the frontal lobe thing is bupkis. who knew. awesome.
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and the frontal lobe syndrome.
The usefulness of frontal lobe (FL) dysfunction as a conceptual model for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) was investigated. Twenty-four ADHD and 24 normal control (NC) children were tested using two batteries of tasks. The first was sensitive to FL deficits in motor control and problem solving skills. The second consisted of memory tasks sensitive to temporal lobe dysfunction. ADHD children differed significantly from NCs on measures of FL function, but not on tests of temporal lobe functions. Where norms were available for normal children on the same FL tests, ADHDs performed like 6- to 7-year-olds, despite their mean age of 10 years and minimum age of 8 years. The differential performance of ADHDs on tasks sensitive to FL and temporal lobe dysfunction supports the hypothesis that ADHD deficits are analogous to FL dysfunction and demonstrates that the children's deficits do not reflect generalized cognitive impairment.
oh wait, maybe it isn't bupkis.
A neuropsychological examination of the underlying deficit in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: frontal lobe versus right parietal lobe theories.
A neuropsychological approach was used to examine the frontal lobe and right parietal lobe theories of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Considerable attempts were made to select as pure a group of ADHD boys as possible. The performance of 10-14-year-old ADHD boys (n = 22), both on and off stimulant medication, was compared with the performance of non-ADHD control boys (n = 22) on tasks purported to assess frontal lobe functioning (Stopping Task, Antisaccade Task, Tower of Hanoi) and right parietal lobe functioning (Visual-Spatial Cuing Task, Turning Task, Spatial Relations). Three important findings emerged: (a) unmedicated ADHD boys exhibited performance deficits on tasks in both frontal and parietal domains compared with control boys, (b) unmedicated ADHD boys appeared to be more severely impaired on the frontal tasks than on the parietal tasks, and (c) medicated ADHD boys performed better in both task domains compared with unmedicated ADHD boys. Several alternative interpretations of the results are discussed.
Frontal lobe functions in attention deficit disorder with and without hyperactivity: A review and research report
Thus, while both types of ADD share some apparent similarities in deficits on a few frontal lobe tests in this study, the totality of existing findings suggests an additional problem with perceptual-motor speed and processing in the ADD/-H group.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Kitsune, posted 10-11-2007 10:26 AM Kitsune has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 320 of 327 (427429)
10-11-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by molbiogirl
10-11-2007 12:00 PM


Re: Vaccine Ingredients
I don't eat evil biscuits as they aggravate my (insert self diagnosis).
i try not to eat biscuits either. they require gravy. together they aggravate my fat ass.
she will probably say she doesn't eat biscuits because they don't have them in england.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by molbiogirl, posted 10-11-2007 12:00 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 13018
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 321 of 327 (427433)
10-11-2007 12:49 PM


Summation Time
This thread has passed the 300-message limit. Please cease discussion, but if you are so inclined, post a summation of your position and/or the thread. I'll leave this thread open till tomorrow morning.
Please, no responses to summations. If there's a sequel thread you can respond there.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Kitsune, posted 10-11-2007 1:28 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 324 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-11-2007 4:23 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 325 by molbiogirl, posted 10-11-2007 6:18 PM Admin has not replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4322 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 322 of 327 (427438)
10-11-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Admin
10-11-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Summation Time
My arguments have all been presented here. It's also clear what people think of them. If serious studies could be done on the effects of vaccines, including the safety of what is in them and the safety of stimulating the immune system in this particuar way, then I would certainly be willing to listen. The studies would need to be conducted by independent organisations, rather than those who manufacture vaccines or who make money from them in some way. The biggest problem I have is that vaccines are assumed to be safe. The truth is that they have not been tested in any satisfactory way.
If people are wanting to continue to discuss on a sequel thread then you'll be doing it without me. It's hard work being one voice against so many others and it's impossible to address every post. I'd rather join some topics where it's not "me" vs. "everybody else."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Admin, posted 10-11-2007 12:49 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Wounded King, posted 10-11-2007 2:03 PM Kitsune has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 323 of 327 (427447)
10-11-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Kitsune
10-11-2007 1:28 PM


Re: Summation Time
I know this is supposed to be summations only time, but that certainly sounds like an excellent reason to set up a great debate on the topic.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Kitsune, posted 10-11-2007 1:28 PM Kitsune has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 324 of 327 (427480)
10-11-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Admin
10-11-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Summation Time
well. for a little summation on this side, there are plenty of studies about the safety of vaccines specifically relating to the concerns that have been addressed and very few other questions regarding where these alleged increases in diseases and disorders have come from. it would seem all these questions are raised specifically to discount vaccinations and not to actually promote study of causation.
we've shown these studies and articles through the course of this thread and they've been ignored.
the discussion of "scary" ingredients seems based on nothing more than ignorance and some strange fear of "unnatural" ingredients. what are we looking for? the magical mumps flower? but there hasn't been any response to that. i'd hope for a new thread on that, but i doubt it will happen.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 325 of 327 (427499)
10-11-2007 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Admin
10-11-2007 12:49 PM


Re: Summation Time
Just a few moments ago, I finished reading tsmith | ScienceBlogs and found this:
Why are you even wasting our time asking for a paper then? Your response to any evidence given to you is that there is a conspiracy, so even if I found you some mind blowingly amazing paper about HIV causing AIDS you will just respond by saying it's propaganda. So what is the point? What do you want?
Posted by: apy | October 11, 2007 4:19 PM
It doesn't matter if it's HIV/AIDS denialism or anti-vax hysteria, the True Believer® turns a blind eye to the obvious.
In fact, I've noticed that the True Believer® tends to believe more than one version of quackery.
Again, from Aetiology:
funny all my life i beleived in hiv, I got tested several times, and I heard of A duesberg guy when I was 20 and I thought he was totally nuts. I even brought it up in class one day that this guy was a complete lunatic ( I never bothered reading his papers)
many years later I saw the film hiv fact on fraud on google, i was so mad before wtaching it, cause I thought it was BS, but after it totally changed me, that more research is needed.
This same thing thing happened with me and 9/11, thought no way it could be a false flag operation, then we all saw loose change and it blew us all away in our college dorm room.
Weird how much thought control there is in America, and how millions of people are getting exposed to these alternative theories and they are beliveing them, not because they are crazy, but they seem to make more sense to any open minded intelligent person.
Posted by: cooler | October 11, 2007 1:59 PM
HIV/AIDS Denialist and WTC Conspiracy Theorist.
Two great tastes that taste great together!
Similarly, True Believers® that post on this forum like their woo in two or more flavors ... Poltergeist Fanaticism and Antivax Hysteria, for example.
It is truly criminal that the Antivax Hysterics allow their crippling ignorance to endanger not just their children, but entire towns.
Implications of a 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana for sustained elimination of measles in the United States.
N Engl J Med. 2006 Aug 3;355(5):447-55.
Measles was declared eliminated from the United States in 2000 but remains endemic worldwide. In 2005, a 17-year-old unvaccinated girl who was incubating measles returned from Romania, creating the largest documented outbreak of measles in the United States since 1996 ... This outbreak was caused by the importation of measles into a population of children whose parents had refused to have them vaccinated because of safety concerns about the vaccine. High vaccination levels in the surrounding community and low rates of vaccine failure averted an epidemic. Maintenance of high rates of vaccination coverage, including improved strategies of communication with persons who refuse vaccination, is necessary to prevent future outbreaks and sustain the elimination of measles in the United States.
Should Antivax Hysteria gain a real foothold here in the U.S., it is entirely possible that we will once again see devastation wrought by measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc.
It is a pity and a shame that the harm borne of Antivax Hysteria is done to children.
I hope that one day Antivax Hysterics are prosecuted for their criminal actions, much as HIV+ folks who knowingly pass on the disease to their (unknowing) partners have been prosecuted.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 326 of 327 (427529)
10-11-2007 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by purpledawn
10-11-2007 10:35 AM


Re: Screening
quote:
Since autism seems to be on the rise
Again, I must correct this.
The diagnosis of autism is on the rise. This does not mean that the actual incidence of autism is increasing.
From this article, which I hope everyone here reads. bold added by me:
Let’s begin with the hypothesis that thimerosal is one of the causes of autism and it is the main culprit in the increased incidence of autism during the 1990s. This is a plausible hypothesis, but as Karl Popper taught us, a good scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable. That is, it must be possible to conceive of evidence that would prove it wrong. What evidence might suggest that the thimerosal hypothesis is false? For obvious ethical reasons, we can’t perform the kind of gold-standard experiment ” a randomized double-blind study ” which would most convincingly indicate the lack of a causal relation. We must rely on natural experiments. One such experiment was occasioned by the removal of thimerosal in Denmark in 1992. If the thimerosal hypothesis were false, we would not expect to see changes in the rates of autism following the removal of thimerosal. In fact, the results were more robust: despite the removal of thimerosal, the rates of autism continued to climb. And not only in Denmark but in Sweden, too, where thimerosal was removed at about the same time.6
A similar way the thimerosal hypothesis could be falsified is to show that there is no link between the amount of thimerosal exposure and the likelihood of autism. That is, we would ask if there is a dose-response relation between thimerosal exposure and developmental problems. Several studies have confirmed that there is no convincing evidence of a dose-response relation.7 In fact, one study suggested a beneficial effect of thimerosal! For example, exposure at three months was inversely related to problems of hyperactivity, conduct, and motor development months or years later.8 Now, these results do not imply causation, nor do they pertain to autism per se, but they do question the general validity of the thimerosal hypothesis.
Another problem for the purported vaccine-autism link is that there is good reason to be suspicious of claims for an autism epidemic. A number of factors can account for the dramatic increase in numbers, including the expansion of diagnostic criteria in 1994, and changes in criteria for inclusion in child-count data for children with autism. Remember that 273 percent increase over a decade in autism spectrum disorders in California? Consider, as did the authors of a recent paper published in Current Directions in Psychological Science,14 that this increase could be due to an expanded diagnostic definition of autism. The authors found that a similar expansion in the definition of “tall” ” from 74.5 inches to 72 inches ” generated in one county in Texas a 273 percent increase if these two criteria were applied a decade apart.
More importantly, autism is not even a “thing” that can be clearly correlated with any other thing. Unlike cancer or a broken bone, there are no discrete physical, biological, or genetic markers on which to base a diagnosis. Instead, autism is a diagnostic label based on the presence of a number of behavioral excesses and deficits. The diagnosis is subjective and subject to great variability. When you consider that many resources are made available only to those children with some formal diagnosis, it is easy to see why some diagnoses might be made with scant supporting evidence. The physician or psychologist notices some obvious learning delays and behavior problems in a patient and recognizes the need for intensive services, but the only way the family can obtain those services is if the child fits a certain diagnostic category.
Correlations are tenuous things under the best conditions. Degrade one of the variables, and you are in serious trouble. Such is the case with the autism-vaccine correlation.
Consider that the average age for many vaccinations is between 12 and 18 months. Now consider that many of the “symptoms” of autism ” such as social withdrawal and delayed language ” aren’t readily detectable until this same age or just a bit later. It could very well be that any relationship between vaccination and diagnosis is purely coincidental. If these vaccinations were not commonly given until age four, perhaps no correlation would be observed. Not to mention that the vast majority of children receive these vaccinations without incident.13
The bottom line is that correlation is not causation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by purpledawn, posted 10-11-2007 10:35 AM purpledawn has not replied

AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 327 of 327 (427537)
10-11-2007 10:03 PM


Time For Cancel and Replace.
I'll close this thread and open a sequal to it. Members who wish to make responses to messages in this thread may do so in the new thread.

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