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Author Topic:   Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?
Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 244 of 301 (332933)
07-18-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 9:30 AM


Re: oh, great
more than 200 casualties, for 2 kidnappings. at what point does it become obvious that this is a disproportionate response?
What exactly is a proportionate response? Kidnapping Lebanese soldiers and offering to trade them? The alternatives (doing nothing, giving peace and diplomacy a chance, awaiting international action) are political suicide in Israel; not to mention useless.
When this all settles down, the winner will not be the ethnic group with the most moral character.
Do you seriously believe that Israel is targeting civilians? If so, why is the casualty count only 200? Which is it? Are the Israelis murderous incompetents or professional soldiers fighting against criminals hidden amidst a civilian population?
I'm not all for the Israelis in this. I think that Hezbollah has deliberately sidestepped the Lebanese government and provoked Israel. But if the Lebanese will not or cannot keep them leashed then they have no cause for complaint.
There is no such thing as a disproportianate response when your goal is to rescue and protect your own citizens. It's a pity Hezbollah doesn't think the same way.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 9:30 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 07-18-2006 4:09 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 07-18-2006 4:19 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2006 4:22 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 250 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:17 PM Wepwawet has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 255 of 301 (333087)
07-18-2006 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Modulous
07-18-2006 4:09 PM


Re: disproportionate
So if it was two million Lebanese civillians that had been killed, that still wouldn't be disproportionate?
I have the wrong answer for this question. Personally I believe the answer is yes. If killing two million returns my two missing soldiers and prevents further attacks on my country then I would do it.
It's not a good answer is it? I spent four years in the Army and I found myself believing that one of mine is worth more than all of theirs combined. If everyone thought that way the world would be a much safer place.
That's not to say that I would kill everyone who crossed my path, just those who tried to keep me from recovering my mates. And no, I can't magically tell who is resisting and who is just in the way, so I'd use the best judgment I have and try to keep the casualties as low as possible. But success is not determined by enemy body count but by bringing the boys home and stopping enemy attacks.
Hezbollah has it in their power to return the soldiers and get out of Southern Lebanon whenever they like.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 07-18-2006 4:09 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 9:20 PM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 260 by Iblis, posted 07-18-2006 9:42 PM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 265 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:27 PM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 272 by Modulous, posted 07-19-2006 6:51 AM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 279 by MangyTiger, posted 07-19-2006 11:01 PM Wepwawet has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 256 of 301 (333092)
07-18-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by MangyTiger
07-18-2006 4:19 PM


Re: oh, great
Why would Israel need to do this?
You do know one of the reasons why Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israelis was to exhange for some of the thousands of Lebanse that Israel has held prisoner for years?
Hey, Syria holds Lebanese prisoners too...did they get attacked?
There are two answers to another nation holding your citizens captive, you can try to reach a diplomatic settlement or you can go to war to force the enemy to do what you want. Hezbollah is the one who chose to start this latest round of fighting.
Yes, Israel has made prisoner exchanges in the past, and sometimes did so as a result of hostage takings. However Israel is under no obligation to encourage such actions by continuing a policy of appeasement.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 07-18-2006 4:19 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 257 of 301 (333098)
07-18-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by PaulK
07-18-2006 4:22 PM


Re: oh, great
So it all started when he hit me back huh? There is a difference between taking hostages as bargaining chips and holding prisoners accused of criminal activities. One is a crime and the other is a practice that all civilized nations follow.
Israel holds no hostages to the best of my knowledge. It is their stated position that they only have people imprisoned for criminal activities. I'm not saying there's no abuse there mind you, but if Israel were holding hostages like Hezbollah, they would have started lining them up against the wall and shooting them every 15 minutes till the soldiers were returned.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2006 4:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 9:32 PM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 271 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2006 2:18 AM Wepwawet has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 262 of 301 (333118)
07-18-2006 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 5:17 PM


Re: oh, great
depends on how you define "civilians." see, since most terrorists are not in official armed forces of recognized countries -- they are civilians.
Yep, and the "civilians" who are launching rockets and kidnapping soldiers are legally and morally required to wear distinctive uniforms to prevent just this sort of thing. So since we can't tell the difference between an innocent civilian and a Hezbollah terrorist, should we allow Hezbollah to act without fear of reprisal?
and, in case you hadn't noticed, they're now bombing suburbs. yes, hezbollah has a strong presence there -- but that's like bombing the ghetto to get rid of a gang.
The area being bombed is near the airport...only suburbs for the reason that airports aren't built downtown. It does not mean that Israel is targetting yuppie housing.
i think they're a country much like any other, and do not deserve special consideration and allowences when they step over the line.
I'm not sure I understand what line they've stepped over? You have to admit that the Israeli response is restrained, even if you think it's still too much. There is no wholesale slaughter of Lebanese citizens and considerable effort being expended to spare the citizens while targetting Hezbollah. What exactly do you expect of them short of rolling over and surrendering?
hezbollah is an official and elected party in lebanon. they are a major part of an alliance that controls all of southern lebanon.
True, but they are not all of the Lebanese government. The democratically elected Lebanese government is just as much of a target of this operation as Israel...perhaps moreso.
is full-blown war and military assualt, and bombings of areas heavily populated with civilians a justified response to two, count them, two kidnappings?
This is not yet a full-blown war and military assault, but it may become so. Rhetoric does not make it one.
So where's the line? How many people have to be killed and kidnapped to justify a military response against Hezbollah? Realize that there is no military response against them without endangering their human shields...that's why they hide behind them. You said two isn't enough...show me your math and tell me how many it takes.
faith accuses me of moral equivalence because i say that 200 dead is more serious of a misdeed than 2 kidnappings, or rather, because i think that dead arabs aren't worth less than dead jews. the kidnapped may or may not be alive -- but the 200 dead are dead. and that was this morning, before israel bombed residential areas. how many more are dead now?
200 dead is more serious than 2 kidnappings, but is it a misdeed? The Hezbollah border attack, killings and kidnapping were definitely a misdeed, but who are we to tell a sovreign nation that they are not allowed to defend their borders and protect their citizens? The onus falls on Hezbollah this time for initiating the violence and while the Israeli response could become brutally savage in effect, it is still an act of self-defense while their cities are under attack and their soldiers are held captive.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:17 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 9:54 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 264 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:23 PM Wepwawet has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 266 of 301 (333134)
07-18-2006 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-18-2006 9:54 PM


Re: oh, great
Who? Us? You mean the descendents of the terrorists that overthrew legitimate british sovereignty?
You could have at least made the pretence of responding to my post instead of going off on your American Revolution analogy again. It doesn't hold up and even if it did it makes not a bit of difference.
Lebanon and Israel are not in the same situation. They are both sovreign states that were at peace until a faction of one country launched an unprovoked attack on the other. Was kidnapping the 2 soldiers (not to mention killing three others) a misdeed?

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 9:54 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 11:00 PM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 268 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 11:01 PM Wepwawet has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 269 of 301 (333162)
07-19-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
07-18-2006 11:01 PM


Re: oh, great
I'm sorry you don't understand the analogy...,.. the fact that you don't think it makes a difference is pretty telling.
Then please explain in your wisdom exactly how an analogy of the American Revolution makes a difference in how we view the Middle East? And please keep your thinly veiled ad-homs to yourself, I've done nothing more than disagree with you.
Who are the terrorists? Who is legitimate? It really all depends on your point of view.
Precisely so. And my point of view is that a democratically elected government responding to an attack should have an advantage, moral opinion wise, over the quasi-government hate group that hijacked their own nation and instigated the attack at the behest of their Syrian and Iranian masters.
What makes the americans revolutionaries of the 1770s more legitimate than the palenstinians today? How about the IRA? More or less legitimate than the palestinians?
Ahhh...Palestinians now. I see your goal posts have shifted. Still it's nothing but smoke...what does legitimacy have to do with this struggle? I'll address the difference though: The Americans and Irish did not want to destroy Great Britain, whereas the Palestinians have the desire to destroy Israel utterly, they only lack the means to do so. That's where Palestinian legitimacy falls flat on its ass. Israel, on the other hand, has the means to destroy the Palestinians so the only reason the Palestinians still exist is that the Israelis do not desire their destruction. Selah.
Do you know anything about the history of how israel became a country?
Yes. It's a big ol' mess over there. We're all breathless waiting for you to tell us how to fix it.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 11:01 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:45 AM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 273 by Nighttrain, posted 07-19-2006 9:58 AM Wepwawet has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 275 of 301 (333490)
07-19-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 12:45 AM


Re: oh, great
you are aware that hizballah is the main party in a democratically elected alliance control of southern lebanon, right? that's not quasi-government, that IS government.
Yes, but to the best of my knowledge the decision to attack Israel was made unilaterally by Hezbollah and not through a normal Lebanese government proceeding. Picture the Montana state legislature ordering an attack on Canada.
personally, a lot of us feel that bush and co hijacked our country. but if china starts bombing us, we're not gonna say "thank you." in fact, we'd probably support bush in bombing the hell out of them in return.
Strange that a democratically elected government is hijacking our country in your eyes. What sort of government would you prefer? Perhaps a single party system run by the intelligentsia who know what's best for all the little people?
israel is fighting a two-front war.
All the more reason they should fight blindfolded with both hands tied behind their backs right? Could you please share a word of condemnation for the terrorists who started this latest round of bloodshed?
Here's a thing to think about...if you take away the guns from all the Arabs in the region I believe the fighting would stop. If you take away the guns from all the Israelis I believe they would all be killed. Do you agree or disagree?
?—
? —
Now I'm jealous. I'm afraid I don't speak Hebrew but wish I did. Selah is a saying that tends to come after reading of psalms...which I'm sure you know...basically meaning "finished" or "the end". I'm sure you could explain it much better, but I'd have to find a matzoh package around here if I wanted to try translating from the alef-bet.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 12:45 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 11:37 PM Wepwawet has replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 276 of 301 (333494)
07-19-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by PaulK
07-19-2006 2:18 AM


Re: oh, great
I'm sorry Paul, I thought I did address your point, I'll try again...
Hezbollah has taken hostages which they wish to use to barter for prisoners held by the Israelis.
The Israelis (to the best of my knowledge) hold criminal prisoners accused and convicted (I am not saying there are no abuses here folks) of crimes.
Hezbollah may not see or care about the difference, but I do. I won't say that Israel is justified for holding every single prisoner, but they are definitely not holding hostages.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2006 2:18 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2006 2:36 AM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 287 by sidelined, posted 07-20-2006 10:33 AM Wepwawet has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 277 of 301 (333505)
07-19-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Nighttrain
07-19-2006 9:58 AM


Re: oh, great
What are you talking about, the Palestinians used to OWN the country.
That's a very simplistic way of looking at a complex issue. Did they own the country when it was a British protectorate? Did they own the country under the Ottomans? Did they own it before Saladin, Alexander, David or Joshua? What about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who freely sold their property to Jews prior to the founding of Israel? Jews had legally purchased over 30% of the land involved in the 1947 partition plan. So the question of who owns what is rather less simple than you want it to be.
Whether it was right or not to create a Jewish state is a moot point. It is what it is and there doesn't seem to be a solution acceptable to all parties. There is no longer a right or just solution to the problem.
Btw, you left off the closing words in your avatar---'Faith sees God, Intellect does not 'need to'.
That's a real honest-to-God church sign picture, not a church sign generator replica. I agree with your sentiment, but the people who go to that church probably wouldn't.
Oh, and about the Sig line Omni: I'm not supporting Hank Morris...I'm laughing at him. It's a classic example of why creationism is not science.
Edited by Wepwawet, : Tossing in a line for Omnivorous

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Nighttrain, posted 07-19-2006 9:58 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Nighttrain, posted 07-20-2006 2:12 AM Wepwawet has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 281 of 301 (333593)
07-20-2006 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by arachnophilia
07-19-2006 11:37 PM


Re: oh, great
and now picture canada bombing subburbs in montana in retaliation.
What exactly do you think they should do?
yes, by all means. hizballah is petty and childish, from what i have seen, and hate-mongers. i don't know a whole lot about them -- but if they are anything like hamas in their support of suicide bombings, they are despicable and evil for not only their murder of israeli civilians, but their abuse of people through the manipulatory power of religion. heinous on almost all fronts.
Thank you. I'll add that they are little more than a puppet organization doing what Tehran tells them. Tehran is open about this (although it's seldom covered here) and uses the relationship to try to bolster their reputation as the saviours of Islam.
i just don't think that "they want to kill us all" is a good enough reason to kill them all. it's hard to claim moral high ground when the solution is the same as the problem. from what i have heard, israel ceased bombings to allow civilians leave. while probably mostly a political gesture, it is a welcome and humanitarian one.
This is the nub of our disagreement I think. You seem to think that Israel is acting in a manner that recklessly disregards civilian casualties and I think that they are acting with utmost care and restraint. For example the Israelis are habitually leafletting areas warning civilians to stay away from targets...this is not required under any international law and it gives the enemy the chance to leave the area along with the civilians, reducing the overall effectiveness of the attack and placing the Israeli soldiers at greater risk.
i disagree. if you take away the palestinians' guns, they will pick up rakes and torches. take those away, and they will pick up stones. this is life or death to them, and as the suicide bombings should prove, they are willing to fight it using their own bodies and lives as weapons. taking away their guns will only make them fight HARDER, if less effectively.
Rakes and torches only work against the Frankenstein monster I'm afraid...
It's my personal opinion that suicide attacks are a sign of weakness. Dying is easier than sucking up their pride and doing what it takes to stop the killing. The brave martyrs are mostly foolish children who have been brainwashed into thinking that deliberately blowing up other children will get them into heaven.
You'll notice that the Palestinians seem unable to form a disciplined military...why learn how to march and do pushups when you can shoot your gun in the air and scream defiance at the enemy? Compare their antics to any of the successful guerrilla movements in history...the way I see it they're playing games. History may prove me wrong.
actually, i just turned your point around on you with a subtlety of dagesh placement. "selah" has two different meanings. the first -- the one you meant to use, is "exalt" or "lift up." it's probably used in music (psalms) to indicate a rest or pause. the other meaning, a more sarcastic usage, means "to make light of" although most of the times it's used in the bible it means "treading upon" (in the figurative sense -- abusing someone).
Languages are wonderful things. Thanks for explaining that to me.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by arachnophilia, posted 07-19-2006 11:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 07-20-2006 12:52 AM Wepwawet has not replied
 Message 283 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2006 1:17 AM Wepwawet has not replied

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