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Author Topic:   Why is Israel getting away with these atrocities?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 241 of 301 (332823)
07-18-2006 9:30 AM


oh, great
now israel is bombing subburbs.
more than 200 casualties, for 2 kidnappings. at what point does it become obvious that this is a disproportionate response?


Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 9:50 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 244 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 2:11 PM arachnophilia has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 301 (332833)
07-18-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 9:30 AM


On the goals of terrorism
One of the primary goals of terrorist organizations is to encourage disproportionate responses from the opposition. This does several things:
  • it helps build anger towards the responder.
  • it helps in recruiting funding, members and volunteers for future operations.
  • it reduces the resources available to the enemy.
  • it engenders opposition to the act even within the community of the enemy itself.
By those criteria, the various terrorist organizations are succeeding. In particular, the US is losing in every measure and future historians will likely look back on the period beginning around 1980 as the origin of the downfall of the US.
In the current Israel issue, we see the same reaction. Israel's responses are totally out of propportion to the threat. From a political, social, economic or moral perspective, all Israel is doing is ensuring the likelhood of the success of those it is opposing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 9:30 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:58 AM jar has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 243 of 301 (332858)
07-18-2006 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
07-18-2006 9:50 AM


Re: On the goals of terrorism
*sigh*
why can't we all just get along? there are no winners in this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 9:50 AM jar has not replied

Wepwawet
Member (Idle past 6109 days)
Posts: 85
From: Texas
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 244 of 301 (332933)
07-18-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 9:30 AM


Re: oh, great
more than 200 casualties, for 2 kidnappings. at what point does it become obvious that this is a disproportionate response?
What exactly is a proportionate response? Kidnapping Lebanese soldiers and offering to trade them? The alternatives (doing nothing, giving peace and diplomacy a chance, awaiting international action) are political suicide in Israel; not to mention useless.
When this all settles down, the winner will not be the ethnic group with the most moral character.
Do you seriously believe that Israel is targeting civilians? If so, why is the casualty count only 200? Which is it? Are the Israelis murderous incompetents or professional soldiers fighting against criminals hidden amidst a civilian population?
I'm not all for the Israelis in this. I think that Hezbollah has deliberately sidestepped the Lebanese government and provoked Israel. But if the Lebanese will not or cannot keep them leashed then they have no cause for complaint.
There is no such thing as a disproportianate response when your goal is to rescue and protect your own citizens. It's a pity Hezbollah doesn't think the same way.

When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 9:30 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 07-18-2006 4:09 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 07-18-2006 4:19 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2006 4:22 PM Wepwawet has replied
 Message 250 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:17 PM Wepwawet has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 245 of 301 (332969)
07-18-2006 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 2:11 PM


disproportionate
But if the Lebanese will not or cannot keep them leashed then they have no cause for complaint.
There is no such thing as a disproportianate response when your goal is to rescue and protect your own citizens.
So if it was two million Lebanese civillians that had been killed, that still wouldn't be disproportionate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 2:11 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 8:51 PM Modulous has replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 246 of 301 (332975)
07-18-2006 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 2:11 PM


Re: oh, great
What exactly is a proportionate response? Kidnapping Lebanese soldiers and offering to trade them?
Why would Israel need to do this?
You do know one of the reasons why Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israelis was to exhange for some of the thousands of Lebanse that Israel has held prisoner for years?
There was an interview with the father of one of the two kidnapped soldiers on BBC News today - he said that Israel has made prisoner exchanges many times in the past, so it's clear Israel's agenda is not just getting the two soldiers back.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 2:11 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:23 PM MangyTiger has not replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 247 of 301 (332980)
07-18-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 2:11 PM


Re: oh, great
quote:
There is no such thing as a disproportianate response when your goal is to rescue and protect your own citizens. It's a pity Hezbollah doesn't think the same way.
So you're saying that Hezbollah aren't ruthless enough ? You do realise that the kidnapping that started this was an attempt to get prsionsers released from Israeli jails ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 2:11 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 9:05 PM PaulK has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 248 of 301 (333002)
07-18-2006 4:52 PM


Some sad words from one of my favorite bands.
I don't agree with Tool's basic worldview being that they are blatantly anti-Christian but I can't not love their music. I was listening to this song while I got caught up with this thread.
Right In Two - From 10,000 Days:
Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.
Don't these talking monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys
Where there's one you're bound to divide it
Right in two
Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?
Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs they forge a blade
And where there's one they're bound to divide it
Right in two
Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs they make a club,
And beat their brother down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability,
To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:06 PM Jazzns has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 249 of 301 (333006)
07-18-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Jazzns
07-18-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Some sad words from one of my favorite bands.
yeah, i keep thinking of that song too. seriously good cd.
I don't agree with Tool's basic worldview being that they are blatantly anti-Christian but I can't not love their music.
uh, i'm not so sure, this album has alot of judeo-christian imagery, in place of lateralus's hindu imagery. i haven't really bothered to look at the lyrics yet, as the official ones have yet to be released, but there looks to be some more mixed feelings on this one -- particularly the title track. maynard seems to be both commending (and apologizing to?) his mother for her faith, but attacking (or at least questioning) god for his cruelty to her.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Jazzns, posted 07-18-2006 4:52 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Jazzns, posted 07-18-2006 5:54 PM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 250 of 301 (333010)
07-18-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Wepwawet
07-18-2006 2:11 PM


Re: oh, great
Do you seriously believe that Israel is targeting civilians?
depends on how you define "civilians." see, since most terrorists are not in official armed forces of recognized countries -- they are civilians.
and, in case you hadn't noticed, they're now bombing suburbs. yes, hezbollah has a strong presence there -- but that's like bombing the ghetto to get rid of a gang.
Which is it? Are the Israelis murderous incompetents or professional soldiers fighting against criminals hidden amidst a civilian population?
i think they're a country much like any other, and do not deserve special consideration and allowences when they step over the line.
I'm not all for the Israelis in this. I think that Hezbollah has deliberately sidestepped the Lebanese government and provoked Israel. But if the Lebanese will not or cannot keep them leashed then they have no cause for complaint.
hezbollah is an official and elected party in lebanon. they are a major part of an alliance that controls all of southern lebanon.
make no mistake about this, this is not the bs excuse we use in this country about fighting one little group and nevermind the country. they are as much attacking lebanon as if someone attacked us to remove bush and the neocons from our government. israel is going to war, and treating this like a war. there is none of these petty "military action" excuses -- when a country attacks another country, it's war.
is full-blown war and military assualt, and bombings of areas heavily populated with civilians a justified response to two, count them, two kidnappings?
There is no such thing as a disproportianate response when your goal is to rescue and protect your own citizens.
faith accuses me of moral equivalence because i say that 200 dead is more serious of a misdeed than 2 kidnappings, or rather, because i think that dead arabs aren't worth less than dead jews. the kidnapped may or may not be alive -- but the 200 dead are dead. and that was this morning, before israel bombed residential areas. how many more are dead now?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 2:11 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Wepwawet, posted 07-18-2006 9:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 251 of 301 (333015)
07-18-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by MangyTiger
07-18-2006 4:19 PM


Re: oh, great
You do know one of the reasons why Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israelis was to exhange for some of the thousands of Lebanse that Israel has held prisoner for years?
interesting. i'm divided on this. can you provide more information, like the reasons the lebanese are held in israel (i'm assuming israel has a reason)?
There was an interview with the father of one of the two kidnapped soldiers on BBC News today - he said that Israel has made prisoner exchanges many times in the past, so it's clear Israel's agenda is not just getting the two soldiers back.
clearly. they have to mantain their image as the toughest kid on the playground. i think the idea is to give everyone else the idea that they take terrorism so seriously, and threats so seriously that they will return any attack a 1,000 fold. eventually maing terrorism unthinkable out of fear of repurcusions -- and making other countries want to boot their own terrorists.
maybe that's a good strategy, or maybe they've just seen "swordfish" one too many times.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 07-18-2006 4:19 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 252 of 301 (333037)
07-18-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Some sad words from one of my favorite bands.
uh, i'm not so sure
Not necessarily Tool but just about the same, see the song 'Judith' from A Perfect Circle.
Maynard, if he is not anti-Christian, he seems to at least have hated God at some point in his life. Then again, haven't we all.
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 5:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 6:03 PM Jazzns has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 253 of 301 (333042)
07-18-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Jazzns
07-18-2006 5:54 PM


Re: Some sad words from one of my favorite bands.
Not necessarily Tool but just about the same, see the song 'Judith' from A Perfect Circle.
yes, while "judith" seems to be a condemnation of his mother's faith, post-stroke, "wings for marie" does not seem to be. it might be highly questioning of god, or angry at god, but not his mother and her faith. though it might just be one of things someone tells someone on their deathbed -- what they want to hear. alot is still very condemning of her congregation, and the religion as a whole.
Maynard, if he is not anti-Christian, he seems to at least have hated God at some point in his life. Then again, haven't we all.
probably had a lot to do with his mother. "jimmy" is also about her stroke, he was only 11 when it happened. that sorta thing can mess a child up.
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 301 (333047)
07-18-2006 6:10 PM


Back towards the topic folk
Let's drop the tune talk.

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  • Wepwawet
    Member (Idle past 6109 days)
    Posts: 85
    From: Texas
    Joined: 04-05-2006


    Message 255 of 301 (333087)
    07-18-2006 8:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 245 by Modulous
    07-18-2006 4:09 PM


    Re: disproportionate
    So if it was two million Lebanese civillians that had been killed, that still wouldn't be disproportionate?
    I have the wrong answer for this question. Personally I believe the answer is yes. If killing two million returns my two missing soldiers and prevents further attacks on my country then I would do it.
    It's not a good answer is it? I spent four years in the Army and I found myself believing that one of mine is worth more than all of theirs combined. If everyone thought that way the world would be a much safer place.
    That's not to say that I would kill everyone who crossed my path, just those who tried to keep me from recovering my mates. And no, I can't magically tell who is resisting and who is just in the way, so I'd use the best judgment I have and try to keep the casualties as low as possible. But success is not determined by enemy body count but by bringing the boys home and stopping enemy attacks.
    Hezbollah has it in their power to return the soldiers and get out of Southern Lebanon whenever they like.

    When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
    - Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

    This message is a reply to:
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     Message 265 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:27 PM Wepwawet has not replied
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