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Author Topic:   World Cup!!!
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 76 of 101 (326585)
06-26-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by FliesOnly
06-26-2006 1:42 PM


Re: Kick the ball towards the net!!!!!!!!!!
fliesonly writes:
Oh come on. Look, these are just guys that kick a ball around for a living, not super-humans. I have admitted that I do not play soccer, nor do I watch very much of the sport either. However, the few segments that I have watched lead me to believe that more shots on goal is certainly a realistic expectation. Seriously, try one less pass and instead, kick the ball towards the goal. Ya never know if ya don't try.
For a forum that deals with a subject like "evolution" all the time, I find it amusing that you think football hasn't reached somekind of 'optimum' yet, lol. :-)
Look, soccer is a game that is being played by hundreds of millions of people in every possible place in the world, and since more than 100 years. Billions of dollars/euros are involved and the big clubs continuously hunt for supertalents in the most remote of places, just to make sure that they don't lose a nugget. On top of that, it is played with incredible passion; if you're good at it, you can become a hero or even a GOD.
Believe me: just about everything had been tried out, and the things that have definitely proven not to work, have been weeded out. Certainly when it comes to matches on a world championship. The weakest teams have been eliminated in preliminary rounds, so you end up with teams that are already levelled to some degree.
If you would watch closely, you would see that the kind of wild shots that you promote, will simply be blocked by defenders 90% of the time. And in the majority of cases, these balls end up with the opponent. There's also a GOALKEEPER in that goal, who catches 95% of anything that gets shot at him from outside the big box and isn't aimed exactly near a goalpost. Consider that not even the very best players will always manage to aim a ball that accurately, not even from a free kick where the ball isn't even moving!
Really, you're just a bit ignorant in this particular subject, I'm afraid

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by FliesOnly, posted 06-26-2006 1:42 PM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by FliesOnly, posted 06-27-2006 4:08 PM Annafan has replied

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 77 of 101 (326713)
06-27-2006 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by lfen
06-26-2006 2:06 PM


Golf...
You know, i've only ever watched golf on tv one time.
It was the president's cup i think...the one where the US versus the rest of the world. sort of "team golf".
It was being held in Fancourt, in south africa.
and for some reason, i watched it the entire day, and into the night. It was an amazing thing to watch, actually exciting golf!
I was even satisfied that it ended in a draw (after a play-off between Woods and Els) - first time that ever happened.
Edited by U can call me Cookie, : Changed subtitle

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by lfen, posted 06-26-2006 2:06 PM lfen has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 78 of 101 (326716)
06-27-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by FliesOnly
06-26-2006 1:42 PM


Re: Kick the ball towards the net!!!!!!!!!!
Files writes:
I have admitted that I do not play soccer, nor do I watch very much of the sport either
Files writes:
Seriously, try one less pass and instead, kick the ball towards the goal. Ya never know if ya don't try.
If you don't watch very much the game then what's the problem? Do you see me arguing about the finer points of cycling with you? Take it from me that played at a high level scoring is not easy.
Let's say players do just kick the ball forward as hard as they can all the time (known as "hoofing") this just gives a greater risk of the other team getting possession! The trick is to keep possession as far down the field as one can and THEN take a shot.
A good analogy would be fencing. They make minute offensive movements for what what seems like an age. When they see a safe opening they strike.
Oh, and no-one here thinks footballers are super-human - quite the opposite in fact. We are trying to point out that the game has more to it than you think!
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 79 of 101 (326892)
06-27-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Annafan
06-26-2006 6:18 PM


I concede...to a point
Hello Annafan:
Annafan writes:
If you would watch closely, you would see that the kind of wild shots that you promote, will simply be blocked by defenders 90% of the time. And in the majority of cases, these balls end up with the opponent. There's also a GOALKEEPER in that goal, who catches 95% of anything that gets shot at him from outside the big box and isn't aimed exactly near a goalpost. Consider that not even the very best players will always manage to aim a ball that accurately, not even from a free kick where the ball isn't even moving!
I will concede. Unlike hockey, where rebounds and redirections by the goalie are common place and even part of the offensive plan, the same is apparently not true of soccer. However, it still appears to me as if not enough effort is put into attempting to score. Call me ignorant...I really don't care nor take offense...it's just the way I see it.
However, what I will not concede is that soccer players are probably the kings (queens) of crying wolf. To me (a person that absolutely will not fake and injury to gain an advantage), the unsportsmanlike conduct of pretending to be seriously injured in hopes of unnecessarily causing your opponent to receive some sort of penalty is cheating...period. I hate it in any sport and soccer players (anecdotally at least), seem to be number one in being a big bunch of pantywaists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Annafan, posted 06-26-2006 6:18 PM Annafan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by CK, posted 06-27-2006 4:10 PM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 81 by rgb, posted 06-27-2006 4:46 PM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 82 by Modulous, posted 06-27-2006 4:59 PM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 83 by Annafan, posted 06-27-2006 5:29 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 80 of 101 (326894)
06-27-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by FliesOnly
06-27-2006 4:08 PM


Re: I concede...to a point
quote:
However, it still appears to me as if not enough effort is put into attempting to score.
How can I put this - you have no idea what you are on about. I'm the same when I try and discuss American football.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by FliesOnly, posted 06-27-2006 4:08 PM FliesOnly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-27-2006 7:14 PM CK has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 101 (326906)
06-27-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by FliesOnly
06-27-2006 4:08 PM


Re: I concede...to a point
FliesOnly writes
quote:
Call me ignorant...I really don't care nor take offense
I don't think you're ignorant. I think you're just stupid, that's all

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by FliesOnly, posted 06-27-2006 4:08 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 82 of 101 (326910)
06-27-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by FliesOnly
06-27-2006 4:08 PM


Re: I concede...to a point
However, it still appears to me as if not enough effort is put into attempting to score.
I agree! I get the same feeling when watching American Football...what's this crap about a running game? Why not Hail Mary it every down? Basketball too...what's all this dribbling and trying to pass around defenders about. Its possible to score from the halfway line, so take the damned shot you lanky gets! I was watching a full handed limit poker ($30/$60) game the other night too - you know those guys hardly bluff! They need to bluff more, put a bit of effort into winning!
I was watching the cycling the other day. I saw a line of 'team mates' and the front one slowed down and went to the back! They must losing miles doing this. It seems to me like the cyclists are not making enough effort to win!
Clearly these athletes, the tacticians and the managers are all missing the obvious - the games are about quantity of shots, not their quality!
Flies - you and I should start our own teams, we'd wipe the floor with these so called world class athletes...they wouldn't stand a chance and we'd make millions!
There's no other way to say it, the way you see it is flawed. The tactics you speak of are the kind of tactics you see from 12 year olds. Those 12 year olds have to develop tactics closer to the ones you see on television or they will end up getting beaten by those that do.
When a kid has the ball, he wants the glory of a great shot, but it hardly ever pays off (it usually ends up giving advantage to the opposition) - passing the balls and beating defenders, taking advantage of weaknesses...this is where consistent goals are scored. When the defense is world class the weaknesses are small and there aren't many opportunities. It makes the game terminally boring and as a consequence I don't really watch it (exceptions: some international matches). I have better things to do than watch 20 guys running backwards and forwards passing a ball between them for 2 hours.
However, what I will not concede is that soccer players are probably the kings (queens) of crying wolf. To me (a person that absolutely will not fake and injury to gain an advantage), the unsportsmanlike conduct of pretending to be seriously injured in hopes of unnecessarily causing your opponent to receive some sort of penalty is cheating...period. I hate it in any sport and soccer players (anecdotally at least), seem to be number one in being a big bunch of pantywaists.
I agree - the sickness isn't just the fault of the players. They are under a lot of pressure to take those dives from their managers and to an extent - the fans. Because defense is so tough, set pieces can be massive advantages. Millions of quid ride on it, and officials don't do enough to penalize people who are obviously cheating. There are a list of reasons I dislike the sport, and that is one of them.
/exclamation mark filled rant

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by FliesOnly, posted 06-27-2006 4:08 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 83 of 101 (326917)
06-27-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by FliesOnly
06-27-2006 4:08 PM


Re: I concede...to a point
fliesonly writes:
I will concede. Unlike hockey, where rebounds and redirections by the goalie are common place and even part of the offensive plan, the same is apparently not true of soccer. However, it still appears to me as if not enough effort is put into attempting to score. Call me ignorant...I really don't care nor take offense...it's just the way I see it.
In soccer, defending is much easier than attacking. It's easy to kick a ball away, and on the other hand extremely difficult to pass a defender with a ball on your foot. If you're not a superstar the likes of Ronaldino, Maradonna or the early Ronaldo, the only way is passing someone purely on speed, or creating room for a player by playing the ball around and looking for a gap to penetrate into. On a high level, that can take quite a bit of time because the defenders are very skilled.
To return to 'shots at the goal': you will notice that they ARE tried quite often once players are inside the big box. But even there, they are often blocked. Defenders will always make a priority of blocking the possible path of the ball. And once you're outside the box, a shot needs to be both powerfull and precise. In modern football, you just don't often get the time to set yourself up for a powerful strike. And anything less is simply useless.
fliesonly writes:
However, what I will not concede is that soccer players are probably the kings (queens) of crying wolf. To me (a person that absolutely will not fake and injury to gain an advantage), the unsportsmanlike conduct of pretending to be seriously injured in hopes of unnecessarily causing your opponent to receive some sort of penalty is cheating...period. I hate it in any sport and soccer players (anecdotally at least), seem to be number one in being a big bunch of pantywaists.
That's another subject, on which I tend to agree. There's so much money involved, and so much at stake in general, that soccer (in all aspects) has become an accurate reflection of general society in that respect. You gotta look hard to spot any ethics, lol... I also regularly get all riled up seeing the things that happen. A couple of years ago we had a player over here who scored a goal with his hand. The referree hadn't spotted it. All the opponents had, of course. The amazing thing was that, after the game, the player ice-cold admitted that he had used his hand. It was very visible on TV images as well. The result? He was NOT sanctioned!!
Nice example for the youngsters...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by FliesOnly, posted 06-27-2006 4:08 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 84 of 101 (326927)
06-27-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by CK
06-27-2006 4:10 PM


Re: I concede...to a point
How can I put this - you have no idea what you are on about. I'm the same when I try and discuss American football.
In my opinion, there are a some teams that try a little too hard to get the perfect shot and would be better served by being more aggressive with their shooting.
I certainly thought that the netherlands was trying for perfection way too much when I watched them against portugal.
For my fellow Americas who want to watch the world cup. DON'T watch it on ABC. Instead watch it on Univision if you can. It's SOOOOOO much more exciting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by CK, posted 06-27-2006 4:10 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by FliesOnly, posted 06-28-2006 8:37 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 85 of 101 (327086)
06-28-2006 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-27-2006 7:14 PM


Re: I concede...to a point
Hey SNC:
SuperNintendo Chalmers writes:
In my opinion, there are a some teams that try a little too hard to get the perfect shot and would be better served by being more aggressive with their shooting.
Thank You!! This is what I have been saying all along. I was not attempting to imply that no effort is put in to scoring...but that often times it appears to me that not enough effort is put into scoring. Of course, you are just a stupid American like myself...so we obviously have no idea what we're talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-27-2006 7:14 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-28-2006 1:19 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 86 of 101 (327193)
06-28-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by rgb
06-10-2006 1:52 AM


Coruption:
Hi again rgb:
Now that I've raised the hackles of so many people here and have even conceded that perhaps I have been a bit judgmental and mistaken about the lack of offense, let me bring up one other point that practically jumps off the screen every time I have watched a game.
Do you soccerphilics even consider the concept of corruption by the officials? Sure, every sport could conceivably have problems in this area, but it seems that the effects are more immediate in soccer than most other sports. A missed call (like the obvious offside by the Brazilian player yesterday. Actually, as was pointed out, he was offside twice on the same play (ultimately scoring a goal) and it was "missed" both times by the official...hmmmm...and Brazil could "never" lose to Ghana...no way...not to a country new to the World Cup...nope...hmmmm) can have almost instant effects...a goal...a red card...a second yellow card...etc. And in watching some of these games, I couldn’t help but wonder if everything was on the up and up.
For example (and I am not trying to be a complainy, winey, bitchy American, but) you have to admit that the penalty kick infraction (that resulted in Ghana to scoring a goal) was a joke . as were the red and yellow cards given out during our game with Italy.
So, is corruption an issue with you guys, or do you just accept it as an inevitable part of the game?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by rgb, posted 06-10-2006 1:52 AM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by rgb, posted 06-28-2006 1:38 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 87 of 101 (327195)
06-28-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by FliesOnly
06-28-2006 8:37 AM


Re: I concede...to a point
Thank You!! This is what I have been saying all along. I was not attempting to imply that no effort is put in to scoring...but that often times it appears to me that not enough effort is put into scoring. Of course, you are just a stupid American like myself...so we obviously have no idea what we're talking about.
It's similar to hockey IMO. I think there are also hockey teams that try a little too hard for a perfect shot when they should take a few more good shots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by FliesOnly, posted 06-28-2006 8:37 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 101 (327203)
06-28-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by FliesOnly
06-28-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Coruption:
Corruption is an issue.
But for one thing, you have to consider that the rules for soccer (football) haven't changed for a long long time. It's an ancient game where the ref is the king of the field. I have seen refs giving out yellow card after yellow card to players who did nothing but persistent in their complaints. It's not fair to our standards, but it's been like that for as long as anyone can remember.
Ok, corruption. It is entirely possible that corruption happens, and my friends and I often scream bloody murder to the tv screen everytime we see an unfair penalty kick or card.
There was one game where at the early stages of the game a ball ended up behind the line but the goalie grabbed it and took it out. At the time, the ref was in the middle of the field so he couldn't see that a goal had been made. He didn't give it to the team that did it, but then later on he seemed to ignore an obvious foul for the team that should have gotten a goal some ten minutes before. While it wasn't official, I really think that the ref must have talked to someone and realized that he made a mistake so he gave that team back something.
But anyway, the point is corruption may be a problem, but there are other things at play that are not corruption.
If it is such a big thing, then how come the US national team hasn't won? We are talking about the biggest political bully since the Roman Empire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by FliesOnly, posted 06-28-2006 1:16 PM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by FliesOnly, posted 06-28-2006 2:46 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 90 by kuresu, posted 06-28-2006 11:05 PM rgb has not replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 89 of 101 (327236)
06-28-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by rgb
06-28-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Coruption:
rgb writes:
But anyway, the point is corruption may be a problem, but there are other things at play that are not corruption.
Maybe favortism would be a better word. It seems that some teams get all the breaks and that the officiating appears a bit one-sided at times (like when favortite Brazil played first timer Ghana).
rgb writes:
If it is such a big thing, then how come the US national team hasn't won? We are talking about the biggest political bully since the Roman Empire.
Kinda my point. Quite a bit of the rest of the World is, shall we say, a bit upset with the United States. Perhaps the official had a particular grudge and called the game in a manner assuring a USA loss? Again, wholely sepculation on my part...but some of the calls were such obvious bullshit, that a blind man would have seen em.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by rgb, posted 06-28-2006 1:38 PM rgb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2006 12:04 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 90 of 101 (327349)
06-28-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by rgb
06-28-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Coruption:
If it is such a big thing, then how come the US national team hasn't won? We are talking about the biggest political bully since the Roman Empire.
I'll tell you why--soccer (football) isn't that big a sport here. Not when compared to our football, baseball, basketball . . .
The kids lose interest in it by the time they hit high school, and that might be because it's the "uncool" thing to do. Same holds true for why most quit the boy scouts in high school. But, as our football is the cool thing, or basketball (depending on where you live), everyone wants to play those sports.
In other words, we just don't have any superstars. Yo'd think we would--after all, we've got 300 milllion people, and some are bound to be superstars, right? There's just not enough playing the game.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
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