The rights of a conscious entity

Life's worth the living but still we have to look beyond what the genes chosen by Natural Selection dictate us. A side, "independant" view of life is always more objective than what we are being fed by a survial set of genes. Death is so horrible and scary because of Natural Selection, the ones who thought death was not scary and horrible simply died out(generally taking additional risks - jumping from high trees, swimming for too long, fighting lions, etc.). The ones who were scared survived and passed on the genes. In fact, you could see Natural Selection at play in your everyday lives almost constantly at all times. A large portion of our existence is simply Natural Selection at play.
Anyway, life's worth living not just because NS dictates me so, but because you only live once. Death shouldn't be so scary(tho NS tells us otherwise), because we are dead during the rest of time anyway(incl. before we are born).
I just can't imagine living like the Muslims - let's take the Taliban for example. They live worse than pigs, in terrible constraints and restrictions(like no alcohol, no disclosing of face to other men, no going outside the house without the spouse's consent,etc.) for their God, preparing for their next eternal life. What a heroic waste, maybe they are really dumber than pigs .PS. I am not afraid of death but my genes dictate me to be afraid. On the other hand the genes are me, so where did the free will go? Or do i even have a free will or is it just a set of genes that dictate my free will? Oh well, our whole lives are controlled by genes which we didn't choose, maybe we should call it our "free but dictated/controlled will". EDIT This is a fairly deep thought/conclusion with lots of implications that needs more in-depth discussion, please don't reply to it, i'll be posting a new topic. ThanksEdited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Love the skeleton bat wings. You've got a glitch in the other image links though. We are preserved by what we leave behind, whether it is genetic information in our offspring, or scientific information we have learned and taught to others. Certainly we are "repeated" like spreading waves on a pond surface, decreasing in height the further from the original source, but never disappearing.Probably your words, like those of Robin Rohan, will be preserved here for others to enjoy long after you are dust or ashes.And who knows how the final experiment of life ends.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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And may actually take away from having a meaningful life, as it tells you that you don't need to do anything, just wait for salvation.Rather a sad approach if you ask me, but you can see this attitude in some comments.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

It is puzzling sometimes what people call meaningful. How could blind faith in an imaginative place(afterlife) actually provide meaning to living beings? If anything I would say that it could be a wishful after thought at best, but not much more than that.

The idea I was trying to put foward is the scenaro that we as a people were able to create other conscious entity in another universe similar to ourselves.We have all heard in the bible about how god created us in his image so lets say we create these entities in our image.What morals would people in our socitey demand to be given to theses conscious entities as they are as intellegent as you and I are?Do you think we will be forced by some to give these people an after life?Do you think it is heartless to create these people in the first place?What meaning could we give to these peoples lives?Should we ever intervene if there is a problem in "our" new world or should we just sit back and enjoy the show like it is some sort of macabre vaudeville?Are we morally obliged to intervene?

Right off the bat I don't see any point in us humans demanding anything for these people, if they are conscious then they will make up their own minds as to whats best for themselves. Well, is there an afterlife in this scenario? If there is then why shouldn't we offer it to them? However, if its based on the same assumtions that we have on this planet, that an afterlife is just a faith based opinion, then I would say no. Why plague these people with the same fallacious ideologies that plague this planet? Let them use their conscious minds to determine what they'll believe or dis-believe in. How could it be heartless? We make conscious people at the rate of approximately 200,000 per day. As long as they have their own consciousness they'll have the free will to dictate their own lives...just like baby humans That will be determined by how the person lives. If we give their lives meaning then they don't have free will. Who the fuck enjoys macabre vaudeville?Sit back and enjoy what show? Wouldn't their lives be pretty much the same boring shit that we do? Why would anyone want to watch that? In fact I'd watch macabre vaudeville before I'd watch people go through their boring lives. If they have a conscious mind then they'll figure out whats moral and set up laws and live like we do, no intervening is ever required in our world, theirs is no different.Im guessing you're trying to place us in the position of God. "What, or how, would a God handle his creation"?Perhaps just for your scenario one would like to intervene in this new world, perhaps give them an afterlife of sorts too.And all that is fine, but my question, and honestly I think it's the biggest question people of faith should ask themselves, is: Would you reveal yourself to your creation or not? Why? And how would you choose to reveal yourself to them, if you do choose to reveal yourself?Would you be vague about it? Or would you be up front about it with a giant "HELLO" from the clouds?You stand much to gain IMO by being up front:1. You'll give your creation 100% assurance that you're there and you're there to help them.2. No one will ever question whether you exist or not. Every couple of years just pop your head through the clouds, say hello, and leave.There would be NO doubt about your existance and then people wouldn't take advantage and exploit a belief in you and make up shit about creation. It'll be your story, told by you directly to your creation without any middle men. People would require NO faith to believe in your existance and as such can go about their day making logical and rational accessments about their world and believe that you exist also. It's win win for both sides.So to conclude, if I was the God in your make-believe scenario, and I did create these conscious species, then I would, one day every couple generation, gather all of them, explain the story to them about how they were created, and tell them that they are free to use their brains and live their own free lives.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

No morals at all, they'll figure it out on their own, as we did. Some would undoubtedly want this, but I see no need for it, again, we don't have that either (at least, there's no evidence for this) Like I said before, if they would just suffer and then die, yes, if their lives would be like ours, no. Why would we have to give "meaning" to their lives? They'll figure out their own if they're like us. No, why would it be necessary? We handle our problems too, they can do the same with theirs. No, in fact, I think we are morally obliged NOT to intervene. They have the right to deal with their own problems, just as we're doing.

Really why not start out with "the after life" in the first place? why put these entities through all the tediousness and suffering that is the life they will live? Why not cut straight to the chase and give them all the good stuff? After all thats what I would do now that I think about it. You are taking a too narrower prospective. In the big picture is it really a good idea to create something with out hope?It’s totally different to people being born everyday. People are born every day due to human instinct. Society looks positively at the birth of new children because it brings happiness to the family and means the group will continue.A new universe with conscious entities is totally different. Right now they as an overall concept don’t exist humans already exist and it is natural for humans to have more humans to keep the race alive. We are genetically programmed to do this we are not genetically programmed to create other entities in other universes.So I will ask again is it morally wrong and heartless to create these entities in the first place? You got it in one! I am just thinking of a good reason as to why to create the universe the way it is today. Sure a human prospective is not the best one but its all we have. I would do it in a similar way but I would probably leave out all the bad stuff and just give them the good things. Becasue if I made them I would have an affinity with them and seeing them happy would make me happy.If there is an after life why go through with all this bullshit that we have to live with today? As I said before why not cut straight to the chase?Would anybody reading this create a universe that is a mirror image of our universe today?

But that is our life we are born we go through many emotions then die. I am intrigued by this statment and some of the others you posted.Why would you not help somebody or something that you have the capability and power to help? You could make these people you create very happy and greatful to you! But it seems you would rather watch them wallop in their own filth.If you could provide a moral compass why wouldn't you? They would be forever greatful!

Hey RAZDThanks for the helpful advice. I would assume they would be like us and thus look to the heavens at night and wonder. Therefore I think they would create gods of their own. I have created them in my own image!Therefore they suffer in the same way as I do and they suffer in the same way you do!There is no means to an ends in their lives! Unless they have a very narrow outlook on life (like most humans) their toil will be pointless in the end. So why put them through this at all? Ok if we conclude that their is a point to everything what is it?

So as long as the suffering part is thrown in with a bit of a laugh and a giggle or two it makes it morally ok in your eyes?

Yes, many emotions, but not just suffering, which is what I said would not be justifiable. If however their lives are like ours, then on the whole they'll be leading happy lives, which I have no objections against. Because I do not believe I am the ultimate authority on someone else's morals. In our society it is considered bad to murder someone, perhaps in theirs it is ok, who am I to say my morality is better than theirs? We're talking about a sepperate universe here, not ours. In our world I would oppose to murder, in theirs it might be perfectly acceptable, what I think of that is irrelevant in my eyes.

Is any suffering justifiable if you have the ability to stop it? What does it say about somebody who could stop suffering but decides not too? We will just have to disagree on this one. I am a person who thinks that acting in the best intrest of the group as a whole is the best outcome and of the highest importance. I dont see how murder anywhere could be acceptable! It not only takes away a persons life but it also as a profound effect on many people in the group.

I can think of several situations in which murdering a group member would be benificial to the group (for instance, he could threaten to blow everything up), is it ok to kill him then? Morality is not either good or bad, there's a massive grey area where choices are not so easy. This is what I meant by this, we can't enforce our version of morality, since we have no way of knowing if it is the "right" morality in a completely different universe. These creatures may view our morals as the vilest thing ever, would you still want to enforce our morality upon them then? That's the point I guess I'm trying to make.Edited by Huntard, : Spellings

You didn't answer whether the scenario had an afterlife or not. However, you asked "why start with the afterlife?"...Well because by definition afterlife already gives it the after life definition. If we started with it it would not be an afterlife, it would be THE life. You have yet to establish why it hopeless. Im not following your argument here. I didn't present the scenario of other people in other universes, you did, therefore their existance is established by you in this hypothetical scenario. And I will give you the same answer, as long as they have their own conscious minds to make their own decisions about their lives then sure, why not create them? I see no difference in them or humans. Perhaps the problem is that you think this universe is created, where as I don't think that. In my eye's there is no issue of creation, and/or purpose for it. Ok, why? Seems like you created them to satisfy you, not to give them an independant life. I will disagree with that line of thinking. And from that I will conclude that there is NO afterlife to worry about. But, just keep in mind that by definition afterlife has to be after one's life.Take care...

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky