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Author Topic:   How Skeptical Are You?
nator
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 84 (363953)
11-15-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
11-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Answering questions
quote:
There does some seem to be a high number of crashes there.
It's actually a myth that the incidence of crashes in the triangle is any greater than anywhere else.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 84 (363960)
11-15-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
11-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Answering questions
There does some seem to be a high number of crashes there.
Actually not that I can find any evidence for. If you check with reinsurers like Lloyd's you will find that the Bermuda Triangle carries no higher risk factor than any other comparable shipping lane.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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42
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 84 (364030)
11-16-2006 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by aristarchus
03-25-2005 2:38 AM


Do you believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK...?
I think he was shot with more than one bullet from different directions simultaneously. Its either a supernatural act, a conspiracy, or somene with very long arms.
All the best.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18633
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 64 of 84 (364051)
11-16-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by nator
11-15-2006 5:53 PM


The Triangle
I always thought that the Bermuda Triangle was sensationalized by a few books and authors looking to make a quick buck. The only thing that dissappeared was peoples money!

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6484
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 9.0


Message 65 of 84 (364052)
11-16-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by aristarchus
03-25-2005 2:38 AM


Do you believe Earth is now, or ever has been visited by life from other planets?
No, assuming this means intentional visit. But I can't rule out that organic molecules could have arrived, and panspermia is still a possibility.
Do you believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK, RFK, or MLK? If yes, please specify which one(s).
Small conspiracy (two or three people) - probably, at least for JFK and MLK. Large conspiracy - no.
Do you believe that Franklin Roosevelt knew that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, but kept the information secret in order to get the U.S. into WWII?
No.
Are there supernatural forces working in the Bermuda Tiangle?
No on the Bermuda Triangle. I don't know about tht tiangle

Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

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NeuroCycle
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 84 (364075)
11-16-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
11-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Answering questions
No, but there has been some talk about gases coming from the floor bed of the the Atlantic causing engines to stall. Its possible.
The gas is methane. The claim is that large deposits of methane get released from the ocean floor.
Mythbusters did an episode on the ability of methane to stall a prop plane engine. Yes, it can stall out an engine, but the amount of methane to oxygen ratio is well over anything that nature can produce. The more likely reason (if a methane bubble is the culprit) is that the methane screws with the altimeter and gives a false reading of the pilot climbing, so to adjust they would reduce their altitude: crash. Only viable in reduced/near zero visablity weather conditions.
The University of Michigan also do a test using a scale model of a freighter and the effect of a massive methane bubble bursting under it. The effect, under the right conditions, can suck a ship under instantly. Again the bubble has to be enormous to achive that effect.
An article I found on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 67 of 84 (364079)
11-16-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
11-15-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Answering questions
nemesis-juggernaut writes:
There does some seem to be a high number of crashes there.
I recall reading somewhere that many of these "wrecks" did not actually occur in the Triangle. Many were simply vessels that passed through the area and then disappeared elsewhere...some as far a way as the Great Lakes. Yet these "disappearances" where attributed to the Triangle.
I can't recall the source though. Anyone else hear this, or am I just a wee bit nuts?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9011
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 68 of 84 (364080)
11-16-2006 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
11-16-2006 8:12 AM


Bermuda Triangle - Solved
That is the name of a book I read about 25 years ago. (IIRC)
The author scours the mags and books for all cases involving the triangle.
He then did his best to research each one. From memory some examples are:
1) claim: ship disappears off florida coast mysteriously -- calm night etc.
Actual: headline in NYTimes to the effect of "huge storm off florida coast"
2) claim: ship sinks mysteriously in gulf of mexico
actual: article from days previously about the sorry state of repair of an old rust bucket
3) claim: ships is gone
actual: no such ship ever existed in any regsistry he could find.
4) claim: bermuda triangle has mysterious number of incidents.
actual: taking all the stories in all the mags and books the bermuda triangle covers from the coast of England to out in the pacific off mexico. It happens to cover the most heavily used shipping lanes in the world. -- no mystery.
Others are just unexplainable since there isn't enough information to tie them to anything.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 84 (364083)
11-16-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by NeuroCycle
11-16-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Answering questions
The gas is methane. The claim is that large deposits of methane get released from the ocean floor.
Mythbusters did an episode on the ability of methane to stall a prop plane engine. Yes, it can stall out an engine, but the amount of methane to oxygen ratio is well over anything that nature can produce. The more likely reason (if a methane bubble is the culprit) is that the methane screws with the altimeter and gives a false reading of the pilot climbing, so to adjust they would reduce their altitude: crash. Only viable in reduced/near zero visablity weather conditions.
This is quite possible. Mechanical failure seems to happen a whole lot more over the water than over land. But perhaps the number of crashes could also simply be attributed to the sheer volume of traffic. But then again, there are more transatlantic flights from England to New York than there are from Miami to the caribbean. But then again we could also factor in that the majority of planes in the Bermuda Triangle are single or twin prop planes that aren't built nearly as well as, or as efficiently, as a Boeing 767. I don;t know, I'm sure there are alot of factors.
As for the Mythbusters episode, I think that's where I heard of the methane gas theory, but I didn't see the conclusion. A large methane bubble seems plausible, but it wouldn't surprise me if they busted the myth.
The University of Michigan also do a test using a scale model of a freighter and the effect of a massive methane bubble bursting under it. The effect, under the right conditions, can suck a ship under instantly. Again the bubble has to be enormous to achive that effect.
Can suck a ship under water, instantly? Maybe that's what happened to the USS Proteus, USS Cyclops, and the USS Nereus. I don't see how ships can just disappear without getting out a distress call. But then again, during the time of their disappearance, its possible they got jacked by German U-boats.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
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NeuroCycle
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 84 (364088)
11-16-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
11-16-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Answering questions
As for the Mythbusters episode, I think that's where I heard of the methane gas theory, but I didn't see the conclusion. A large methane bubble seems plausible, but it wouldn't surprise me if they busted the myth.
In typical Mythbusters fashion they ran the test with different levels of methane. Finding that the most plausiable amount of methane to oxygen ratio a methan bubble could produce didn't stall it, they introduced as much methane as was needed to stall it. From my limited memory I believe the level was serveral times higher than you would ever see in an open air system.
Can suck a ship under water, instantly? Maybe that's what happened to the USS Proteus, USS Cyclops, and the USS Nereus. I don't see how ships can just disappear without getting out a distress call. But then again, during the time of their disappearance, its possible they got jacked by German U-boats.
Relativily instant. From the model test I saw it seemed to be a pretty violent reation. If the freighter was empty and a sudden, large amount of water was to over come the surface I would assume the interior cargo holds would fill with water quite quickly. I could be wrong on this of course.
I could see them not being able to send out a signal, just on the fact of not being able to physically send it out. Ship being thrown into a quick, steep list and such.
Edited by NeuroCycle, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3541 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 71 of 84 (364110)
11-16-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by aristarchus
03-25-2005 2:38 AM


Being a skeptic, I am forced to answer I don't know to all those questions and I also believe that most other people don't know either even though they answered "yes" or "no".

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3541 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 72 of 84 (364114)
11-16-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by sfs
03-28-2005 9:43 AM


Re: The Mechanism is Money
sfs writes:
The money is not owed to the Fed, it's owed to investors, most notably foreign central banks.
Actually, most of the national debt is owed to US citizens through bonds and the so-called "money from the future" which means spending more money than you have claiming you'll pay it back at some other time.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 84 (364115)
11-16-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taz
11-16-2006 2:33 PM


Being a skeptic, I am forced to answer I don't know to all those questions and I also believe that most other people don't know either even though they answered "yes" or "no".
You don't know what you believe?
The question were 'do you believe X'?
People can most certainly know if they believe something

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 Message 71 by Taz, posted 11-16-2006 2:33 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3541 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 74 of 84 (364122)
11-16-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2006 2:42 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
You don't know what you believe?
Why have a belief or disbelief in something that I don't know nearly enough about to make a decision one way or the other?
The question were 'do you believe X'?
The english language is inadequate for me to express my answer in a single word answer. All I can say is I neither believe nor disbelieve "X".
People can most certainly know if they believe something
Yes, they can.
Again, why have a belief or disbelief in something you know almost zip about? Sure, I've seen plenty of tv programs on the bermuda triangle and all the other weird stuff. Heck, I've even seen the fox program on the fake moon landing conspiracy theory thing. Doesn't mean I can speak authoritatively on the subjects.
I guess what I'm trying to say in too many words is in the end our belief or disbelief in the things the OP presented means absolutely squat.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 84 (364123)
11-16-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by FliesOnly
11-16-2006 11:50 AM


Re: Answering questions
I recall reading somewhere that many of these "wrecks" did not actually occur in the Triangle. Many were simply vessels that passed through the area and then disappeared elsewhere...some as far a way as the Great Lakes. Yet these "disappearances" where attributed to the Triangle.
I don't know if any wrecks or plane crashes that occured outside the Triangle was ever attributed erroneously to the Bermuda Triangle. As for wrecks on the Lakes, I know it has happened alot. I think another factor about the Florida coastline could be attributed to the undersea topography. Unlike the Pacific which has deep oceanic shelves, the Atlantic waters off of the coast of Florida is very shallow, where the keel of a ship, particularly large ships where the draft is many feet underwater, run a risk of running aground. Then again, only a tiny part of the Florida coast, (the City of Miami to Miami Beach) is actually consolidated in a portion of the Bermuda Triangle. So that rules that out. But it wouldn't surprise me if people mistakenly attribute many crashes off the coast of Florida to the Bermuda Triangle, even though it is outside of that triangle.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
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