Transexuals and Marriage: A Question

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It is idiotic to think marriage needs to be trashed to accommodate every such relationship.

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Can you please list some specificexamples of marriage being "trashed" if gay people are permitted to marry?You have made many shrill, yet vague, predictions of doom if gay people are allowed to marry, yet you have never had the balls to actually say what you think will befall the nation and the world should this come to pass.So, tell us, Faith. What exactly do you see happening that will be the ruin of us all?

Because there's two of them.I mean, duh!

Sure. The quickest, fastest way to do that is to allow homosexual couples to marry. And there's a bunch of other benefits, too. Rather than change 1000 laws, why not change just one?

Throughout human history marriage between those of the same sex has been a normal part of the cultural and social institution of marriage. It is actually those of the Christian right who propose redefnining marriage to mean ONLY between a man and woman.Same sex marriage is NOT a new concept. It's been around for thousands of years at least.

You keep claiming that same sex marriage has been known throughout history but what you offered for proof a while back for the most part showed "liaisons" and temporary connections, not marriage, and certainly very RARE occurrences, most culture-specific, in any case.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Even the ancient Greeks, as liberal as they were in regard to same sex relationships, only thought of marriage as a "thing" between people of opposite sex. Ancient Romans were another example.Yes, throughout history same sex relationships had been very common, but they still thought of marriage as something between men and women.

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You keep claiming that same sex marriage has been known throughout history but what you offered for proof a while back for the most part showed "liaisons" and temporary connections, not marriage, and certainly very RARE occurrences, most culture-specific, in any case.

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Even if what you claim is true, are you then saying that no culture is ever allowed to change it's rules regarding marriage?

Well, that's one culture that didn't have gay marriage. You've got about 1,000,000 more to go to substantiate that no culture had gay marriage. That's two. 999,999 more to go. Better get crackin'!

No. You're wrong on all counts. I did provide evidence which you obviously didn't bother to read through. And it is obvious from the readings that homosexual marriage is not a RARE occurence, but is fundemental, universal, and historic. Here is another article in wikipedia which distinctly says "marriage" and not just unions. {ABE: The one I referenced before is at the end of this post} WikipediaOf course, if you did a bit of research you would find that same-sex marriage exists and has existed throughout the world.From the following website:
Same-sex MARRIAGE article

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Woman-woman marriage has been documented in more than 30 African populations, including the Yoruba and Ibo of West Africa, the Nuer of Sudan, the Lovedu, Zulu and Sotho of South Africa, and the Kikuyu and Nandi of East Africa.

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Typically, such arrangements involved two women undergoing formal marriage rites; the requisite bride price is paid by one party as in a heterosexual marriage. The woman who pays the bride price for the other woman becomes the sociological 'husband'. The couple may have children with the help of a 'sperm donor', who is a male kinsman or friend of the female husband, or a man of the wife's own choosing, depending on the customs of the community. The female husband is the sociological father of any resulting offspring. The children belong to her lineage, not to their biological father's.

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Article reference: Joseph M. Carrier and Stephen O. Murray, "Woman-woman marriage in Africa", Boy-wives and Female Husbands: Studies of African Homosexualities, ed. Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe, p255-257

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Formalized, socially-recognized relations between two men also exist in Africa.

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Article reference: Joseph M. Carrier and Stephen O. Murray, "Woman-woman marriage in Africa", Boy-wives and Female Husbands: Studies of African Homosexualities, ed. Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe, p27

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Among the Mohave, men have married alyha (biological males who are officially initiated into a 'female' gender role) and women have married hwame (the female equivalent of alyha).

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Article reference: Roscoe, Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America, p140-141

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Hu Pu'an records the phenomenon of two-women commitment ceremonies in "A Record of China's Customs: Guangdong"...

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Article reference: http://www.china-stemmata.com/CTFS/JLQ.htm

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In the neighboring province of Fujian, same-sex marriages between males were also recognized.

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Article reference: Bret Hinsch, Passions of the Cut Sleeve: The Male Homosexual Tradition in China, p132And if you have an desire to look further into the subject and educate yourself you might try the wikipedia article I referenced before (scroll down a bit to get to the meat of the issue: WikiEdited by DBlevins, : Added reference to previous article posted.

I do not want to read through another "History of Sexuality" site. thanks anyway. You give no dates, no statistics, just a few anecdotal-type references to VERY FEW VERY MINOR small tribes without bothering with incidence or percentages, yet you are calling this some kind of big deal throughout history. You don't discuss cultural context, whether it's even about homosexuality -- I can't tell from the quotes you give. And I'm sure this comes from the pro-gay literature too. No, I will not research it. You've proved nothing and that's your job, not mine.

See my reply to Faith: here

crashfrog writes

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That's two. 999,999 more to go. Better get crackin'!

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Ok crashfrog, I give up. Now it's your turn to give the other 99999... example of cultures that accepted marriage between people of the same sex.

Maybe you're not too clear on logic? To rebut that assertion that something never happens, all I need is 1 example. Luckily, DBlevins has already provided several.

See Faith's post right above yours.

crashfrog writes

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Maybe you're not too clear on logic?

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Maybe not, but please point out where I said same sex marriage had never happenned in history. If I did, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant to say that throughout human history the cultures that did not accept same sex marriage overwhelmingly outnumber those that did, and that's an understatement. The few examples of same sex marriage accepting societies were very small isolated cultures that's been extinct for a long time now.