Transexuals and Marriage: A Question

Why, not ten posts ago:

quote:

---

Yes, throughout history same sex relationships had been very common, but they still thought of marriage as something between men and women.

---

So what? The cultures that accepted slavery overwhelmingly outnumber the ones that didn't, but we recognize that, despite being in the majority, they were wrong.In time, we'll see the cultures that denied the equivalence of same-sex relationships in the same way.

so it's fingers in the ears, and "la la la I cant hear you" time again is it?Edited by ohnhai, : No reason given.

crashfrog writes

quote:

---

So what? The cultures that accepted slavery overwhelmingly outnumber the ones that didn't, but we recognize that, despite being in the majority, they were wrong.

---

Exactly. That's why they changed it to indentured servant and eventually got rid of it overall.

quote:

---

In time, we'll see the cultures that denied the equivalence of same-sex relationships in the same way.

---

There's no doubt of that. Just like the fact that we got rid of slavery altogether, why not get rid of the word marriage for this new relationship and give it its own term? As CK suggested, something like garriage would be fine.

Who cares what word we use? As long as the rights are the same. So long as a man's husband or a woman's wife is their legal spouse, that's all I care about.Honestly, though, if you're going to relegate homosexuals to second-class status because you don't like a word choice, you're not a very good person.

Don’t be so perverse. If a doctor told you that you needed a radical surgical procedure or you would die, you do have a choice. To have the procedure or not. But how realistic is it to say you are utterly free in that choice? Havarti may well have been told that if she had kids it was odds on that it would kill her. (My sister was sterilized after her second after she suffered a suspected pulmonary embolism, As was the my friend who almost bleed to death after her fourth) In situations like those you in reality have very little choice in the matter. To trans-genders they can perceive that there is as little choice in their decision as Havarti’s hypothetical “have the operation, or die”

You are right, marriage was traditionally a legal way of establishing ownership of the female, her fathers estates, money, title and prestige. Love had little to do with it (at least for the upper classes, who didn’t give a fig for what the lower classes did).So quite a real way if you are clinging to the history of marriage as a validation of what it means then you are also arguing for the virtual slavery of the female.

Let see shall we?Taken from the traditional wedding vows

quote:

---

MINISTER:

​

This is a beginning and a continuation of their growth as individuals. With mutual care, respect, responsibility and knowledge comes the affirmation of each one’s own life happiness, growth and freedom. With respect for individual boundaries comes the freedom to love unconditionally. Within the emotional safety of a loving relationship - the knowledge self-offered one another becomes the fertile soil for continued growth. With care and responsibility towards self and one another comes the potential for full and happy lives.

​

By gathering together all the wishes of happiness and our fondest hopes for GROOM'S NAME and BRIDE'S NAME from all present here, we assure them that our hearts are in tune with theirs. These moments are so meaningful to all of us, for “what greater thing is there for two human souls than to feel that they are joined together - to strengthen each other in all labor - to minister to each other in all sorrow - to share with each other in all gladness.

​

This relationship stands for love, loyalty, honesty and trust, but most of all for friendship. Before they knew love, they were friends, and it was from this seed of friendship that is their destiny. Do not think that you can direct the course of love - for love, if it finds you worthy, shall direct you.

​

Marriage is an act of faith and a personal commitment as well as a moral and physical union between two people. Marriage has been described as the best and most important relationship that can exist between them. It is the construction of their love and trust into a single growing energy of spiritual life. It is amoral commitment that requires and deserves daily attention. Marriage should be a life long consecration of the ideal of loving kindness - backed with the will to make it last.

​

Exchange of Vows

​

MINISTER TO GROOM:

​

Do you GROOM'S NAME take BRIDE'S NAME to be your wife - to live together after God’s ordinance - in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you love her, comfort her, honor and keep her, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, in sadness and in joy, to cherish and continually bestow upon her your heart’s deepest devotion, forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her as long as you both shall live?

​

GROOM:

​

I will.

​

MINISTER TO BRIDE:

​

Do you BRIDE'S NAME) take GROOM'S NAME to be your husband - to live together after God’s ordinance - in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, in sadness and in joy, to cherish and continually bestow upon him your heart’s deepest devotion, forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto him as long as you both shall live?

​

BRIDE:

​

I will.

---

Sure, nothing at all in there about love and life long commitment.Edited by ohnhai, : changed title

Of course's there's love and commitment. But it isn't the definitive thing. You can have all kinds of love and commitment between people who have no reason to be married.

ohnhai writes

quote:

---

To trans-genders they can perceive that there is as little choice in their decision as Havarti’s hypothetical “have the operation, or die”

---

First of all, trans-gender is different than transsexual, and we are talking about transsexuals.Comparing a medical problem to a psychological one is a stretch, don't you think? There is nothing "life and death" about sexual identity crisis.

tell me, out of curiosity, what is the reason to be married.not the qualifications, the reason.

---

And what are transsexuals BEFORE they become Transsexulas.... go on have a guess. Try telling that to your average Transsexual/gender.

you are right. traditionaly the defining thing was ownership of the woman.

There's nothing life or death about osteoporosis, either, but people still have hip replacement surgery. There's a quality of life consideration, here. Being trapped in a body of the wrong sex, or being trapped in a body that can't walk - either way. that's a medical problem to be treated medically.Look, you can argue if you like, but psychological problems are medical problems, which is why the people who treat such problems are doctors.

I made my point and you should acknolwedge it. It's not definitively about love and commitment. Not in every culture.Biblically the man and woman own each other.

In what sense? What duties are involved?