Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,833 Year: 4,090/9,624 Month: 961/974 Week: 288/286 Day: 9/40 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are sexual prohibitions mixing religion and the law?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 17 of 206 (261381)
11-19-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
11-19-2005 8:00 PM


Loaded Terms
randman writes:
you say you have trouble seeing how science can lead to sexual amorality. Holmes, if I remember, argued based on science, and you admit we are mostly imposing religion on people.
So, in fact, isn't reasonable to claim that science leads to amorality from your perspective at least. I think there are those that argue science indicates monogamous marriage is best for children, people, etc....so maybe science does not.
Morality, amorality, and immorality are terms that make sense only within a specific moral system or model: what is immoral in one system may be trivially amoral in another; a moral obligation in one model is an immoral imposition in another.
The notion of moral relativism is itself prima facie absurd because it suggests it could be otherwise: all moral systems are relative in that they cohere only for those within them. That is why so many of the responses above hinge determinations of sexual morality on the question of consent: if two competent persons act together consensually within a mutually agreed upon moral contract, their actions are moral within that contract. It is as fruitless to judge those actions from within another system as it is to ask the speed of blue. It will not compute.
We disdain the man who "cheats" on his wife because he has promised not to--they entered into a private moral universe with their marriage vows (if they didn't, and have an open marriage, then "cheats" does not apply). We nearly universally disdain that man because he failed to honor his vow in the most intimate realm; religions proscribe this behavior because a primary function of religion is to reinforce the moral covenants we make together.
One moral bedrock is the familiar, "First, do no harm"--a charge all, not just physicians, might consider. Cited often as evidence of the earliest development of a "moral sense" in children is their response to broken things: toddlers will cry when symmetrical form is broken. To break, to damage, to hurt: these are moral absolutes; what is breaking, what is damaging, what hurts: these are morally relative because they are coherent notions only within a closed system, only between mutual subscribers.
In short, disdain for the philanderer does not impose religious beliefs; he may well not give a fig for our disdain, and even if he does, disdain is an internal state, not an action. To abduct that man into a moral system he has not subscribed to, and then to pursue punitive measures, is an absolutely immoral act. Science can play a part by helping to determine what promotes and what inhibits robust development,what maintains healthful function, etc., but even the question of whether each determination belongs to the morally absolute or the morally relative is outside of science's bounds. Was the masochist tragically hastened to an early grave by the sadist? Or did the masochist trade-off a longer life for a shorter one of fiery intensity?
These are human affairs. Where morality meets muscle, Science and God are largely and equally irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 11-19-2005 8:00 PM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Silent H, posted 11-20-2005 11:53 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 25 of 206 (261570)
11-20-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Silent H
11-20-2005 11:53 AM


Re: Loaded Terms
Hi, Holmes:
Thanks for both the compliments and the comments.
A better choice of words for me would would have been to say that "the charge of moral relativism" is absurd because it implies an insupportable absolute.
I think its better to say that in a practical sense all moral systems are relative.
Yes: I was trying to portray accusations of moral relativism as disingenuous in their begging of the question--it's probably better to just cut to the chase.
I have to disagree. Disdain for the philanderer is to impose one's own moral system on them. You are correct that the philanderer will reject that attempted imposition, but clearly someone will be trying to get the philanderer to accept the intrusion (or "blanket") of that foreign system.
I was attempting here to move toward an action-based assessment of moral systems. So I will stand by my assertion that disdain "does not impose religious beliefs"--with the understanding that such disdain frequently does carry real-world costs for the disdained.
For me, the punitive action is the bright line, the thin dimension where a working moral absolute (or given, a la Euclidean premises without which we cannot proceed) may be defined. As long as "disdain is an internal state, not an action" a judgement properly remains within its own relative moral sphere; when a disdainer seeks to impose either the disdaining system or punitive costs upon the disdained, the bright line is crossed.
Having said all that, I am re-reading my message for the first time this a.m., and I, too, have a few questions to put to myself. Language intoxicates, and it always pays to consider later whether an argument soared on gusts of rhetoric or on wings of reason.
Typically, I revisit a draft to find it is both.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Silent H, posted 11-20-2005 11:53 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 73 of 206 (262024)
11-21-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by berberry
11-21-2005 1:54 PM


Re: Stranglehold
Berberry writes:
Chiroptera writes Lizard Breath:
quote:
quote:
The precepts that are in the Bible are given by the Creator to allow sexual activity to be a liberating and satisfying activity between a husband and wife.
I guess that would be true, for those who are into that sort of thing.
Shame, isn't it? Especially when you consider that help is available to get people out of that lifestyle.
I hear they are doing wonderful work at the Bonobo Center for Sensuocognitive Assonance. Personally, I feel that first achieving a comfort level on one's own with a modest metrosexual stance facilitates an expansive realization of our Bonobo Cosmosexual Potential (BCP).
But that's just one big ape's opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by berberry, posted 11-21-2005 1:54 PM berberry has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024