farenheit 9/11 (the "liberal media", other things relating to film maker Michael Moore)

Glad you agree with me about the crying. I don't know if you know about this, but there was a pretty big uproar in the US among the pundits and experts regarding all of the flights for the Saudis and Bin Ladens that the US government allowed after 9/11.Many, many people claimed that this was simply not true.Now that it really has been shown to be exactly what happened, everyone is saying, "Well, sure, there's nothing uniusual about the government doing that, yadda yadda yadda."BTW, Moore has a line by line factual backup for the entire movie at his website, if you want to check out any facts.Michael Moore | Substack

Well, I still didn't like it... personal pref... but I was glad to see it was done as you said, in a context which made it appropriate. Oh yeah, I knew it. Of course to admit my own failings, I had read that the flights out were during the blackout period where no other planes were allowed to fly. The truth was different, only slightly less odious.I am interested that Clark thinks it was appropriate to let them go (he signed off on it). It seems bizarre to me, but his honesty on so many other subjects makes me want to know more (I wish he would explain himself better). Thanks for the link, though I already had it. Heheheh, even though I do discuss MM's shortcomings I like him in general and go to his site pretty often (even before F911 was around).I recently saw a list (and it seemed pretty good) of criticisms for F911 which didn't seem to have been addressed by MM in his own list. I wanted to find it again since I have now seen the movie. Unfortunately I can't remember where it was.Anyway, we are in agreement that F911 was a good movie and people ought to see it.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

holmes,Now, you have finally made me curious to see F/911. The only problem is, I am a firm believer in the power of the boycott. There is simply no way that Micheal Moore is ever going to earn one nickel from me. It would please me immensely if the next few of his movies really flopped so his voice would become irrelevant.The only way I will ever be able to see F/911 is if I can get ahold of a known pirated copy. It would feel good to see his work knowing I ripped him off to do it.Verzem

Well THAT is an interesting position, and one I have to respect. I would say that in reality your money really isn't going to be helping him out, but obviously if ten people do the same thing (breaking a boycott) and then another it starts making a difference. Can I tell you to be the one to start crossing the line?Well here's the deal... no matter what you feel about MM or his previous movies, this one really is less about him. Although he is the narrator weaving his own tale of what happened (?), and pops in from time to time, there is some real damage coming from their own mouths and other quite credible people.It has stuff you will NOT SEE, or HAVE SEEN, in regular media.So maybe it would be worth your while to see this movie and hope his others flop instead? I think it's safe to say its a blockbuster anyway (and an award winner) so whatever else he gets is icing on the cake... but maybe you don't want to provide the frosting.If you don't want to help MM, you could also check out some of the many books which have come out (including people shown in this movie) about the backstory of 9-11, and the eventual war in Iraq.Heheheh, if you want to get some insight into what you'd see and definitely cost him money (in bandwidth) you could always go to his website and read where points he made have been confirmed by an official congressional (and I will remind you, bipartisan) investigation. It just won't be as funny.And finally, if you don't like MM's sense of humor (an aesthetic issue) then you might not appreciate the movie anyway. But it sounds like yours is more a political issue.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh man I don't know if you heard this yet or not, but Kuwait has just banned F911 because it insults the Saudis (specifically the Saudi leadership).Both Kuwait and Saudi officials claim that Moore should have done his homework, and read the 911 report, because (they claim) he says (wrongly) in his movie that the Saudis were able to leave the country before Sept 13.Uhhhhhhh, I wonder what hay Moore is going to make for having his film banned (and getting publicly slandered) for something he never did. These people are not the first and I guess they won't be the last to claim that he said that in his movie. It seems to be an urban legend at this point.Of course all these lame-asses ought to go see the movie themselves and find out HE NEVER SAYS THAT! He actually says they left on Sept 13, the problem was the amount of questioning before being allowed to leave and why the government helped put this together for them... not the date of departure.Ahhhhh, so many of Moore's critics are just like this. Too bad.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

No, I haden't heard about the banning of F911 in Kuwait.If I were a Saudi I'd be pretty upset that so many Americans saw that my family publically beheads people, and that my family also owns around 7% of the US economy.

Verzem, are you planning on seeing the documentary that is critical of Fox News?I personally can't wait.http://www.outfoxed.org/The following is my favorite comment about the movie so far:"It's unfair, it's slanted and it's a hit job. And I haven't even seen it yet."-Eric Shawn, FOX News ReporterLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Yeah, and Kent Hovind has a similar backup for his YEC "theories". And this proves...what ?It dismays me that so many on this board, who rightly insist on independent corroboration of evidence on scientific matters, throw all that critical thinking to the wind with Moore.

I've only read over part of it so far. It seems all the citations given could be checked further if you wanted to. They are (or many are) independent.Which ones would you give as examples that are not?

schrafinator,I will check out the link tomorrow. It sounds interesting. I hope MM isn't involved with it though.Will it surprise you to know that I am boycotting FOX NEWS. Have been ever since the Judge Roy Moore (another fucked up Moore) fiasco with the 10C monument in Alabama. I particularly hated O'Reilly and Hannity on that issue.What is it about these Moores anyhow?Verzem

holmes responds to me:

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why don't you take responsibility for your own actions and simply forget I exist?

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Great, and you can go a long ways in helping me forget you exist, by not responding to my posts. That just kind of makes sense.

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No, as I told you the last time, that doesn't make sense.Your desire to forget about me is not predicated upon my ignoring your statements. If you don't want to read me, don't read me.I, on the other hand, am here to discuss things. If you make a statement that I would like to respond to, I will do it. Your desire not to receive a reply from me simply doesn't enter into it. You are not obligated to respond. Only you can control your actions. Nobody can force you to respond.Hint: If you want to start living your life without me in it, don't respond to this post.Hint: I don't care what you think of me.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

While I agree that there seem to be many people that take Moore at ALL of his words without researching deeper, to imply that Moore is completely off base is to make an equal error.In the case of F911, he has certainly tried to make his facts more bullet-proof than previous movies, and the link schraf provided shows some definitive evidence regarding facts presented in the movie.Your comment does make me wonder if you bothered to see the movie or even the link. If not, haven't you just commited the same error you are accusing everyone else of?I would also add that whether a doc maker gets all his facts right is not as important as if a President and his administration get their facts right. They have made and continue to make completely fallacious statements... heheheh, and contradictory statements... but where is this critical thinking from conservatives?Thankfully there are some who have called the president and his administration to task (Zinni, Clark, the other Clark, and even Tom Clancy) but this has not made large waves through the general conervative population who continue to lap up anything this administration says.Isn't that a bit more frightening to you? Shouldn't it be?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Always remember that unless you are paying a fee to see a site, your viewing costs the person running the site money. That's the best kind of boycotting you can do (although I suppose it ups their hit count).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

...and yet... Yeah I think I remember how this goes... a one, two, three...Rrhain's posts keep falling on my head
That doesn't mean I should pull hairs out of my head
If replying ain't for me
'Cause
No one ever stopped the Rrhain by complaining
Or asking please
He's like some social disease. You must, because you keep responding to my posts, insisting that I should answer and implying I must be wrong if I don't.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

In the case of Zinni and Clark, the criticisms come from a professionally qualified individual, offer alternative strategies, and do not question that terrorism must be fought, but take issue with how it is being done.I have no problem with that. The 9/11 commission report does as much.With Moore on the other hand we have opposition to the very idea that the US has the right to defend itself, along with conspiracy theory and guilt by association worthy of Joe McCarthy.Intellectual junk food, IOW.