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Author Topic:   Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 270 (434438)
11-15-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
11-15-2007 1:11 AM


'O what tangled webs we weave
To my mind, the term "Human Rights", is a misnomer. It is more aptly called "Individual Rights". It is not a set of objective rights that all humans have by right of just being born human, nor is it a set of rights that all humans would agree with or apply in the same way to the same issue.
This has always been the problem which presents a crux: How do you balance cultural diversity without affecting individual rights? We have a society, richly diverse, with long traditions that, if lost, would only bring the world in to a more Westernized way of thinking. You have some groups that say this is an intrusion on their way of life. Its a good argument. Because some countries have said that American and/or European influence has tainted their culture.
On the other hand, simply allowing any society to live life as they see fit also means having to turn a blind eye to moral qualms that we have with that particular society because it does not maximize individual freedom. Female circumcision is a prime example of this.
In fact, this crux is exactly what is going on in many African and Middle Eastern cultures. How do we say that we appreciate your cultural diversity (i.e., leaving you alone), without also compromising on our time-honored Western beliefs, which is the expansion of individual right (i.e., don't cut off her clitoris because she is entitled to keep it)?
Its quite the little conundrum.
As a member of this culture, I grew up exposed to it and am a fervent individualist. I believe in protecting the individual rights of others, and broadening those rights as far as possible.
You sound Libertarian which is a great thing, only, it might limit you on the issues of cultural diversity which you also praise.
I should add that I think both have their place in the sun and are beautiful in their own right. However, there are those instances, such as mentioned above, where they butt heads, leaving us with quite the quandary to sort out.
This idea of national sovereignty included cultural sovereignty and was a natural extension of the idea of individual rights.
This is another problem. If, say, the US invades a country, first to protect its own assets, and second to liberate a repressed society, the US runs the risk of trampeling and violating the cultural diversity, and not respecting the laws or the sovereignty of that nation. On the other hand, they are, say, executing dissenters, surgically removing the clitorises of females, are corrupt, etc, etc.
This is why in many ways a nation like the United States will perpetually be criticized. We are scolded for going in to Iraq, and chastised for not going in to Darfur. We are condemned for going in to Somalia, and lambasted for not going in to (______ insert country here).
I think the nation's leaders just have to say that it is impossible that we will gain the approval of all the people of the world. Because this ever present, vexing crux exists, we will be treading on someone, somehow, no matter how much we would try to avoid it.
Crashfrog argued that human rights are objective and belong to the entire "human community". As such he has a right, and obligation to fight injustices he sees according to that framework of rights, regardless of borders and any impact on other cultures.
Yes, I would agree, however, some would argue that we are just playing world cop again, and that we don't respect the culture of that land. Case in point: Some Muslim women, who appear to us to be ostracized, may not know any better because that life is all they know. They may take great offense for the imposition that they are door mats. They may find it wholly condescending to liberate them from that which they don't want liberating from to begin with. And yet, there are those who see these injustices, but can't speak out against them. They want to be rescued, but can't get a word in edgewise.
Does a human community actually exist?
To an extent. But when you start talking about New World Orders, I'm outta there. I'll be hiding out in the mountains.
That seems like a convenient imaginary concept similar to what the Catholics and Protestants used long ago to "save" other cultures from objective harm as they viewed it. Isn't there simply a human species, just like other animals, in which there are different human communities, just like other animals?
People inherently want to categorize. They will take allegiance where ever they can get it. Crashfrog and I could be diametrically opposed politically, but if we were on the same sports team, watch how fast we begin to work with each other towards a common goal.
Somehow I don't see this as a coming together to share a human community at all
The Utopian dream quickly devolves in to a dystopia, no matter how pure the intentions may be. That's the price of sin. Then again, don't we all aspire to perfection, knowing full well that we'll never actually achieve it?

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Silent H, posted 11-15-2007 1:11 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Silent H, posted 11-18-2007 1:25 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 270 (434459)
11-15-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by SGT Snorkel
11-15-2007 4:42 PM


Misunderstaning freedom
I have individual rights, but I can't do anything I darn well please
Funny, but you will find people out there that honestly believe that freedom entails no hindrances of any kind. Obviously there are parameters-- namely, that your freedom does not impinge on another's.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by SGT Snorkel, posted 11-15-2007 4:42 PM SGT Snorkel has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 270 (436213)
11-24-2007 5:47 PM


This is all getting very silly
Perusing over the dialogue that I've missed, it seems that people are still hyper-focusing on female circumcision and bickering over minor details.
From what I gather, everyone seems to be in agreement. It is a moral tragedy to do that to any woman. If we are to remain consistent with the OP, we need to get back on track.
We all say that its wrong. Where we all seem to differ is why it is immoral, and why it could be construed as immoral.
Most of you claim that objective moral values do not actually exist, but only that we use them in utilitarian or pragmatic ways for reasons of keeping cohesion.
If that's true, then nothing is actually immoral-- even female circumcision. The qualifier then becomes whether something harms someone else.
Well, sometimes people need their jaw broken in order to be reset. The benefits and overall philanthropy outweigh the temporal pain our ephemeral bodies feel. So they say, okay, then its unjustified pain that is the qualifier for what is moral.
Here's the problem: What doe that mean? And how can anyone say that elucidates the morality of something? Unjustified pain first makes a moral declaration that incurring pain is morally wrong.
Then they say that its true only if its unjustified. When you say something is unjustified, you are giving it a moral value. In reality, the adherent is simply taking away one moral with one hand, and then giving the moral back with the other.
Its a sleight of hand.
Now, some atheists assert that they do believe in objective moral values. And really, this makes sense, because what kind of society can be formed without them? Is that not where the turmoil lies?
The problem is, there is no good reason why anyone would want to be moral in a totally atheistic world, devoid of God who supplies meaning.
So, to the reader, I ask:
If female circumcision is wrong, then why is it so? Don't tell me about pain or unjustification. These terms are absolutely useless until you can first understand why any such thing would exist to begin with.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Rrhain, posted 11-24-2007 6:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 270 (436281)
11-24-2007 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Rrhain
11-24-2007 6:29 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Simply because morality is arbitrary and socially constructed doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
In what way do you think morals exist? I'm curious to know.
Monopoly is a completely arbitrary and created game.
What makes it arbitrary? It seems totally dependent upon strategy not fortuitousness.
are you saying atheists don't have morals?
Of course they do. They just have no good reason to be moral. It totally runs counter to Darwinistic mechanisms. You might just as well choke someone who is drowning, rather than pull them out. In a world without objective moral values, there is no difference.
Or are you saying that atheists are just deluding themselves, using the morality that was given by god and denying the source?
All I'm saying is that the atheistic position has no actual reason to be moral, nor is there any explanation for why or how morals could be passed on. At most, you have to look at the practical purposes. But even then, why is it practical? It just goes around and around leading you back to where you came.
quote:
:If female circumcision is wrong, then why is it so?
To quote from "The Life":
It's my body
Not your body
And my body
Is my business
My business
Is my business
And nobody's business
But my own
That doesn't explain why its immoral. It doesn't explain how you've come to that notion or especially why it is intrinsic. You might feel compelled to say, it just is.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Rrhain, posted 11-24-2007 6:29 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 11-24-2007 11:37 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 214 by Rrhain, posted 11-25-2007 9:47 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 270 (436374)
11-25-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Silent H
11-24-2007 11:37 PM


Re: This is all getting very silly
Why wouldn't certain moral characteristics arise from evolutionary processes? They wouldn't have even had to have developed during our last stage of evolution.
How? What indication exists that would say that such a thing can be transmitted via DNA? Are we talking about a "moral gene?" If so, is it linear? Will humans one day be more moral? If morals don't exist anywhere else in the animal kingdom, why and how did it develop in humans?
For example we may have "programs" that keep us wanting to stay together. That could have a survival benefit, and lead naturally to more social skills, including altruism as a learned mechanism for keeping things running smoothly.
Then what becomes of survival of the fittest? Obsolete?
Regardless of why its practical, it would still be practical. I agree this is all atheists have, beyond describing their own aesthetic tastes. I don't see this as a fault, just a definition.
I don't see it as being a matter of taste, as if fancying bludgeoning someone to death as opposed to slashing their neck is the same as trying to decide whether you want Rocky Road or Mint Chocolate Chip ice cream tonight.
Nonetheless, I understand what you mean.
It may be true that I could just as easily kill someone as help them, but as a human I have habits and a nature. I generally just don't want to kill someone, and would want to help. Those with the reverse tend to get weeded out relatively quickly... though not always.
We all agree on that part. The question is why it is that way.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 11-24-2007 11:37 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by molbiogirl, posted 11-25-2007 3:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 270 (436450)
11-25-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Rrhain
11-25-2007 9:47 AM


Re: This is all getting very silly
The same way other social constructs exist. What are you getting at?
I was asking if it is something that intrinsically exists, then what makes it so?
You've never heard of "house rules"? A common one is that all money collected from Chance and Community Chest cards is placed under Free Parking. Anybody who lands there gets to take whatever money happens to be there at the time. This house rule has become so popular that the official version of the game lists it as a variant.
In other words, it's arbitrary. The people playing the game get to decide what rules they're going to play by and even making up some rules.
Alright, but that is one aspect of the game, and I'm unclear about how it relates to the topic.
quote:
They just have no good reason to be moral.
And yet, the mere existence of atheists proves that statement wrong.
To the contrary. It proves that objective morals do exist, despite the desire for it not being so.
Social cooperation helps individuals reach reproductive maturity.
What does reproductive maturity entail, and how would keeping competition around benefit you? In a true altruistic sense, it makes no sense.
Example: Suppose you were out in the woods for a walk when a brush fire started. Suddenly you become disoriented because of the amount of smoke, but you press on in the direction where you think a small river is located. On your way you see an old woman who is lying on the floor yelling for help.
In your mind, this person has a broken leg. You don't know who she is. You know that if you leave her, the fire will consume her. But if you save her, you are going to have to carry her. She's dead weight. She impedes your chances for survival.
The pragmatic answer is simple enough. Leave her. But you can't escape that nagging sense of guilt. How could you allow an old lady to die out there alone? Racked by guilt and haunted by the prospect of a conscience that will eat you alive for the rest of your life, you tun back and save her.
Not a soul would have known what happened out there. There was no benefit to saving her life. In fact, you jeopardized your own life to ensure hers. Why did you save her?
And yet, you never hear of the atheist murder spree. Ergo, your conceptualization of atheism is necessarily wrong.
You aren't listening to me. I challenge that all people really do believe in objective moral values-- even atheists. Because no one can live any kind of meaningful life without them. The problem exists when the atheist has to find out what it is that instituted that absolute morality.
An unbeliever can't answer that question with any honesty and still remain within the framework of its own godlessness.
Therefore, they often nimbly avoid the question head-on and use some unknown darwinian reason as their basis.
Hint: The Golden Rule is not a divine edict. It can easily be developed through mundane means. Can you truly not think of a single reason why you might help a drowning person other than god told you to do so?
If my conscience was not wired as such, meaning God never put His Law in my heart, then there would be no reason. We would be like the brute beasts of the field-- creatures of instinct alone. Because that was imparted to me and you, we feel compelled towards action.
Because it works? Nah...that can't be it. It's gotta be god.
It doesn't explain why it exists, why you would even feel the urge, or by what mechanism it comes by. Its an ad hoc answer to a belabored question.
The morality is that my body is mine and you don't have any rights to it.
Why? Why? Why don't I have any rights to it? What cosmic reason, other than God, would prevent me from ravaging you at my whim? Who says otherwise?
Um, since I said the exact opposite (morality is arbitrary and socially constructed), I fail to see why it would be relevant to try and explain why it is intrinsic. That would seemingly contradict the "arbitrary and socially constructed" premise.
Arbitrary and socially constructed are basically antonyms. If it was socially constructed, it wouldn't be arbitrary. And if it is intrinsic, (meaning society didn't dictate your feelings on the matter), then why it is intrinsic is every bit as important as any other question regarding morality.

“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Rrhain, posted 11-25-2007 9:47 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Silent H, posted 11-25-2007 9:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 230 by Rrhain, posted 11-26-2007 2:34 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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