Human rights, cultural diversity, and moral relativity

Hmmmmm, later you claim to be unable to get into heads of other people. That what they encounter in the sex act itself is patently obvious. That they feel satisfied is not contingent on sex being the same.Some men get off with nearly whole arms shoved up their backsides, that does not mean they are not satisfied in the same way as another guy who is not.What the quoted section suggests to me is that based on their cultural experiences the role of pain as "outside" of sexual activity, does not exist. In fact it is mandatory. How is this different than full-fledged SM? Are you claiming people into SM, some forgoing orgasm even, cannot be satisfied?And your guess at what I meant by L-K's explanation about discrepancies with earlier studies was not correct. I was referring to her discussion of how earlier investigators may not have received adequate feedback from interviewees, based on their own ignorance of the cultures. L-K began by getting the same type of feedback as earlier studies, when a person more familiar with the culture explained she was not asking questions in the right way. She was essentially asking them questions that were taboo to answer in the way she asked... or did not make sense. After she learned how to communicate with them, she was more accepted by the interviewees and given much more detailed info... opposite from earlier studies.For a person with a CA degree you should be familiar with this kind of thing occurring. Her account was a powerful indicator (to my mind anyway) that a breakthrough had occurred and this information more reliable. Apparently so did you medline article. Sure they can dictate a monoculture. Anyone can dictate anything they want.I think you mean they won't have the practical ability to make everyone think or act a certain way. In that case I would agree.However, it can have such instilled by law and people that do not act as such thrown into jails... or other. Ironically my statement was in part an agreement with a point you appeared to be making that the FGM cultures might be creating a monoculture. Now you ask for my evidence?On the OAU and other international agreements, you have totally skipped dealing with the fact that these things are generally negotiated agreements and that they can (and often do) involve some amount of compromise and coercion... particularly poorer nations coerced by more powerful groups.I am not claiming that no one in the OAU liked the agreements, or that no one in Africa liked such things. I am claiming that in all likelihood the agreements were part of negotiations, with some being sacrifices to gain some benefit rather than outright ideological fervor. And further, that they may not all view the tenets of the conventions as meaning what we might take them to mean, or apply them in teh same fashion. Further still, especially given the fractured nature of African societies and the imbalance of power within the poor ones (or non democratic ones) it is a bit hard to say that what delegates of the OAU say are actually representative of the thoughts and desires of Africans per se.This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's understanding how these kinds of things get made. Its diplomacy.What's more, whether they agreed to enact them or not (let's say for true patriotic fervor for human rights!!!!), does not mean they were correct or consistent in doing so. They could have all voted for which God is right, that would not make it so, or right for them to have done so.And yes they are just legal contracts, or perhaps less than that sometimes? Mission statements? How is that a dubious claim on my part?

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Blah blah blah.Look. Provide the cites.I can't stomach any more of your armchair anthropology. Unlike you, I choose to research my positions, not pull them out of my ass. Now perhaps you'd care to grace me with your definition of human rights and how it differs from "individual rights". Twice now you have insisted that coercion of one sort or another is responsible for the OAU signing onto U.N. treaties. And please. No more of your delightful insights. Cites from the literature would be appreciated.What evidence have you of this supposed coercion?

I tried to find the studies you cited online, but could not find a full article... just the abstract... so I wasn't able to determine what the studies meant (i.e. the meaning of the %s was not explained) or whether the studies the lit search was using were valid.I'm not claiming anything other than I couldn't find them. If you have a link to the full text I'd read them.Now, in trying to find the full paper I did run across this interesting abstract... Pleasure and Orgasm in Women with Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting (FGM/C). Catania L, Abdulcadir O, Puppo V, Verde JB, Abdulcadir J, Abdulcadir D.
J Sex Med. 2007 Nov;4(6):1666-78.
Despite the obligatory bookend appeals to human rights and women's rights, the study says something very interesting.Note the highlighted yellow results. Look at the research date? Note the results.It appears that they found what L-K did, mention "other research" which found the same, and are advancing the concept that modern ob/gyn/urologists still don't know what makes a woman tick. Apparently clitoral structures remain, ones modern medical types do not recognize, even in the worst FGM cases... sufficient to deliver orgasms. What's more, delivered in pretty sufficient numbers. They rate higher than the others.Now what?

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

You have no evidence of this "ignorance", nor does Ms. Lightfoot-Klein. You have manufactured this "enthnocentric blindness" out of whole cloth. Stunning. Truly stunning. Sudanese women revel in their "agonizing pain" and thus are able to climax 90% of the time.Perhaps American women would benefit from this extraordinary knowledge!After all, 70% of American women are unable to climax thru penetration alone. There's a big difference between a 40 year literature review and Ms. Lightfoot-Klein's reliance on 2 hopelessly outdated studies (out of the whopping 4 she cited).How's that research into the more recent literature going, btw? Oh ho! What's this? Coercion? You professed ignorance of having suggested "coercion" in your last post! Look. H. You seriously need to step up to the plate.You have spent the last 7 posts bloviating nonstop.I am not interested in your uninformed opinions.Provide support for your blithering nonsense or qualify each of your subsequent posts with the following:THIS IS MY OPINION AND MINE ALONE.

I have access thru my University. You, my dear sir, are SOOL. Yeah. Can't read the paper, can you?Neither can I.This journal is all of 4 years old and my University doesn't subscribe.I cannot judge the paper from its abstract alone, and neither can you.Were I to have judged Ms. Lightfoot-Klein's paper on its abstract alone, I wouldn't have discovered its glaring methodological deficiencies.As you are unable to discuss the relevant literature, I suggest you get hopping and find substantive sources that support your position.

molbiogirl responds to me:

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A child cannot seek asylum.

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Yes, they can. They'll need emancipation, too, but it can be done.

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It's going to take a lot more than a couple of laws on the books to stop this barbarity.

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I never said otherwise. You seem to be heading down the road of insinuating that I am trying to defend FGM in some way. Even if it happens once, it is too many times.But the attitude presented by some (and you're engaging in it to some degree) is that there is a huge problem here in the United States. Just because something is rare doesn't make it other than horrendous, but we have to avoid the opposite illogic: That because it is horrendous, that makes it something other than rare.Note the attempt to manipulate emotion in the report, conflating those who have undergone FGM with those who are "at risk" while at the same time not defining what "at risk" means. We live in a society where unless something is the apocalypse, nobody will pay attention. Eveything has to described in the most breathless manner lest there be an accusation of bias.But by treating the situation in the US as identical to the situation in Africa, by insinuating that the West is a heartbeat away from having FGM being as commonplace as MGM, is to do a disservice to the women who are actually undergoing FGM, diverting funds and services from those who need it to those who don't, creating a social climate where people think all women of a certain cultural background have been victimized when they haven't, etc.Hype never helped anything.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

brennakimi responds to me:

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Men's lives are not important. The death of a male is not as important as the disfigurement of a female.

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i didn't say that.

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Yes, you did. Here: You say it again:

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if circumcision is done properly

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"Properly"? How does one flay a person alive "properly"?

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it's a tony little bit of flesh.

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Ahem. Even when done under medical supervision, little boys quite often die from the procedure. Why? Because circumcision is when you [I][B]FLAY SOMEONE ALIVE[/i][/b].How is that ever done "properly"?"Tiny little bit of flesh"?Little boys DIE from that "tiny little bit of flesh."And thus, you show that you are continuing the sexism: Men's lives are not important. The death of a male is not as important as the disfigurement of a female.

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you're not arguing rationally.

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Funny. That's my argument to you.But then again, sexism isn't rational.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

{deleted}Edited by Silent H, : Believe our debate is not aided with so many different exchanges at once, collapsing three last replies into one...

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Might this have anything to do with many FGMs being performed in countries with 'sub-standard' health care/knowledge? Particularly if we take into account the added complexities of the FGM procedure in comparison to the MGM one?Also, is there any place that this source gives the hard data? It's a little difcult to form a conclusion based on the information when it's already been presented in a particular way by a particular source that has its own agenda to push.Jon

i've seen way too many circumcised adult penises for any of these people to have been "flayed". hell. there are way too many jewish men for this to be an accurate representation of reality. you've failed to show me any proof of this massive genocide of little baby boys, and, as such, i'm going to continue to think you're just angry about your penis. however, loads of data has been presented here about the very real impacts of fgm.i'm not sexist. you're insane.

molbiogirl writes:

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Here in the United States, 1:500,000

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You're off by a factor of at least 1000.And since when did the United States represent the typical case of MGM?

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The death rate for FGM is 10%!

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And yet, how man men undergo MGM compared to women undergoing FGM?More men will die from MGM than all the women who undergo any type of FGM.How many men have to die before you consider it something to be ashamed of? Give us a number so we won't have to bother you until we hit it.Or is the life of a man worth less than the disfigurement of a woman?

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The rate of MGM "accidents" here in the U.S. is 1.5%.

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You do realize that you just contradicted your previous stat, yes? 1:500,000 is not 1.5%. Which is it?And again, what makes you think the medicalized version of the United States is the typical method? The British Journal of Urology puts it at 2-10%. Urologic Clinics of North America has it at about the same at 5% (though about 10% have to undergo the procedure twice which, by my mind, means the complication rate is 15%.)How does one flay someone alive "properly"?

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since "normal" FGM results in lifelong pain/infections/cysts/fistulae.

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Same for MGM. Typical complications are:Infection
Urinary retention
Meatitis
Chordee
Cysts
Lymphadema
Fistulas
Necrosis (especially with the Plastiball method)
Hypospadias
Epispadias
ImpotenceAnd in those rare occasions where anesthesia is involved, all the complications from anesthesia get added. Of course, MGM is rarely done under anesthesia which means the boy is [I][B]FLAYED ALIVE[/i][/b].How does one flay somebody "properly"?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

{deleted}Edited by Silent H, : Believe our debate is not aided with so many different exchanges at once, collapsing three last replies into one...

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

Okay look, I am skeptical of Rrhain's claim on this, but he has made a point and I did give you stats showing people really do suffer. This includes due to the nature of the cutting and not just botched operations.To say one group suffers more painful experiences therefore the painful experiences of the other aren't just as real is a bit sexist... given this context. There are plenty of women in the Sudan... what does that mean? And it is odd to cite men likely in 1st world countries who'd get better medical care in general.Let me ask you this, if they were able to do FGMs in a way that produced no pain at the time, and did not require pain or risk during future events (such as pregnancy), would that make you any more for the procedures?

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

brennakimi responds to me:

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i've seen way too many circumcised adult penises for any of these people to have been "flayed".

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Then I have to wonder if you've been paying attention. You wanna know why that bizarre pigmentation zig-zag happens between the skin just below the glans and the rest of the shaft? That makes it look like an unusually localized case of vitiligo? Because that's where the skin was literally torn off. The glans is still attached and needs to be torn away from the glans, leaving the entire area covered in scar tissue.And it seems you've never met a man with a skin bridge.

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hell. there are way too many jewish men for this to be an accurate representation of reality.

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Hell, there are way too many African women for this to be an accurate representation of reality.Hmmm...if the fact that women survive the procedure is no counter to the claim that it is barbaric, why is that not sufficient for the men?Oh, that's right...I keep forgetting. Men are not as valuable as women.

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i'm going to continue to think you're just angry about your penis.

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When was it established that I was circumcized? Does the status of my penis have any effect on whether or not another boy dies from circumcision?

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however, loads of data has been presented here about the very real impacts of fgm.

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And they haven't been denied.One wonders why you're so intent on denying the very real impacts of MGM. But, that's a hallmark of sexism: The attitude that if something bad happens to both men and women, that somehow diminishes and denies the effect it has on women.How does the fact that X is a barbaric procedure affect the barbarism of Y? Is there only so much compassion to go around? Is this a zero-sum game?Talk about being insane....

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

{deleted}
Next post from me to Molbio will be a combined response from the three prior responses I made. Sorry for any inconvenience.Edited by Silent H, : thatEdited by Silent H, : Believe our debate is not aided with so many different exchanges at once, collapsing three last replies into one...

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h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard