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Author Topic:   Holmes & Tal: Harm
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 16 (177862)
01-17-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Shaz
01-16-2005 9:00 AM


If you intended for this to be over, you found the way to do it. Cheers Holmes.
Actually I was cut off in the middle of writing. It seems though that we may be at an agreeable end, since it seems we both accept the general statement you made.
My only real problem is the subjective demands on talking about evidence...
The implication you are making that I have not supported my case, I feel is unfounded and unfair.
Actually my point was not that you cannot present some kind of evidence, just that your argument for the subjectiveness of evidence means that you really can't say you have evidence either.
I hope you see what I am saying. This is less about the issue of harm, and about the nature of evidence. You were arguing for such a subjective position that it seems no one is capable of making and argument regarding it... except to say "I think".
In the end we could ultimately agree that everything is subjective, but we can also start excluding situations in tests to pinpoint a specific target of our subjective research.
When I made my statement in the other thread I was assuming a somewhat agreed upon position of what "evidence" and "harm" and "general sexual activity itself" would refer to (or what we would subjectively appeal to). The posters I responded to had and afterward continued to use the same criteria I would for those terms.
For example if we use the extreme subjective position you advocated, when posters said there was no harm from homosexuality (or no evidence there is harm from homosexuality) they would be wrong.
It is unlikely that my opponents would agree to that assessment.
Some criteria can be agreed upon in order to start narrowing conditions down. Lets take as an exercise, whether the possibility of STDs is not an intrinsic part of any sexual act. That is to say can we say that sex itself causes the potential for acquiring an STD?
In a healthy population (no STDs) no sexual act will result in even a potential spread of an STD. Likewise in a population with STDs where people understand their state of health and do not have sex if they have (or may have) an STD, then any sexual contact will not pose a potential threat. It is only within a population where STDs exist and people have sex without regard for sexual health, where sex becomes a potential risk for an STD.
That is why those advocating for the nonharm of homosexuality will say that STDs are not a measure of whether homosexual sex itself may cause harm.
Next we can talk about use of force or negligent sexual practices. Homosexuals can and do rape other men. They are also capable of exceeding the physical limits of a partner by not taking care of what is physically happening during sexual activity.
Yet those in defense of homosexuality will say this is not general sexual activity itself which is being discussed. It is clearly a subset of how one can use sex which is not inherent to choosing to have sex, or something that just "might happen" if one engages in sex. There must be a choice by one partner to disregard what is occurring to another during the sexual act.
This is why in my first reply I ruled out scenarios of overt rape and fear, and later added negligence. The people I was talking with surely would. In that subjective context I would consider my original comment appropriate, as well as the altered general comment regarding sex within this thread.
I am thinking that maybe instead of evidence, perhaps it would be more appropriate to say "studies" or "results of studies".
Hope this makes sense.
Yes indeed you are right here, and at the time it was a matter of weighing up the heaviest...
Okay that makes a lot of sense, everyone does have to choose their battles, especially around here.
People are not statistics, or numbers, death, disease, pain, shame, humiliation, are not all measured scientifically. Playing tug of war games in relation to people, is damaging not just to the victim but also to the perpetrator.
Agreed.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Shaz, posted 01-16-2005 9:00 AM Shaz has not replied

  
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