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Author Topic:   I hate being right
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 7 of 119 (46130)
07-15-2003 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-15-2003 11:57 AM


Percipient writes:
quote:
The second thing I find strange is that many Iraqi units were found well equipped with gas masks, chemical suits and chemical antidote. Why would they burden their units with all this equipment if not for protection from their own chemical weapons? It doesn't make sense.
Um, you're ignoring the obvious:
They were worried about us using them on them.
Yeah, our government talks a good talk about not having chemical weapons, but why on earth would anybody believe us?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 07-15-2003 11:57 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 07-15-2003 4:16 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 13 of 119 (46162)
07-15-2003 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mammuthus
07-15-2003 4:16 PM


Mammuthus responds to me:
quote:
In principle I agree that the US government has hardly been a model of trustworthiness ...but if you are in Europe and see some of the governments here in action...they are hardly in much of a position to criticise the honesty (or intelligence) of anybody either.
I don't recall mentioning anybody in Europe.
The question was why the Iraqi soldiers had chemical suits and countermeasures for chemical weapons. The presumption was that the Iraqis were preparing for blowback from Iraqi use of chemical weapons.
My response was that there is another possibility: The Iraqis were preparing for chemical weapon attack from the United States. Given the history of duplicity from the United States, there is a not insignificant number of people outside the US who is certain that the US does have chemical and biological weapons.
And what better way to use them than against a country whom you claim is illegally making them? We can simply claim that they were fired by the Iraqis and they got caught in their own weapons. And if there were an investigation, it would be carried out by the heathen Westerners, headed by the US, and they'd just cover it up and agree with what the US told them to say.
And given what we have just found out about our government's use of false information as justification for going to war and invading another country, who can blame them for thinking just that?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 07-15-2003 4:16 PM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 07-16-2003 4:03 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 23 of 119 (46980)
07-22-2003 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by derwood
07-22-2003 12:57 PM


Don't forget that they're supposed to be in Syria...or has the White House backed off of that assertion, too?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by derwood, posted 07-22-2003 12:57 PM derwood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Nighttrain, posted 07-26-2003 6:21 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 27 of 119 (47695)
07-28-2003 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Nighttrain
07-26-2003 6:21 AM


Nighttrain responds to me:
quote:
If the Iraqis feared a chemical attack, would it be more likely that they would be 'wearing' them?
Only if they were afraid of an imminent chemical attack.
Our own troops were worried about chemical attacks, but they were not wearing their chem suits 24/7.
Think about it: Wear a plastic suit with restricted breathing in the middle of the Iraqi desert. Do you really think that's the best way to fight an enemy who isn't using chemical weapons right at this very minute?
Then factor in the costs of replacing the air filters, checking for damage to the skin of the suit, and then replacing those suits that are damaged, and you can understand why you don't wear the thing until you are sure you have to.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Nighttrain, posted 07-26-2003 6:21 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 28 of 119 (47696)
07-28-2003 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Nighttrain
07-28-2003 6:11 AM


Nighttrain responds to holmes:
quote:
Bit late to be ringing bells and donning gear when gas shells explode around you.
Indeed. But even worse is not being able to see the approaching army coming up to flank you because you've got a gas mask on and can only see the 15 degrees directly in front of you.
Even worse is having a quarter of your forces in sick bay due to heat prostration from the suits.
So yeah, you're probably going to lose some of your troops when the mustard gas starts dropping. But you'd rather lose them in the few battles that use chemical weapons than in every single skirmish.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Nighttrain, posted 07-28-2003 6:11 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 58 of 119 (55078)
09-12-2003 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Wounded King
09-11-2003 9:16 AM


Wounded King writes:
quote:
Except that Saddam's treatment of his people wasn't the reason we went to war.
And if I recall correctly, when Clinton proposed going into the Balkans because of their treatment of the people (and Muslims at that), there was a huge outcry that that wasn't why we have a military. If the Balkans are having an internal crisis, then it wasn't our business, the US isn't the policeman of the world, etc., etc.
Hmmm...why is it that the proponents of this war were so against this sort of justification when Clinton was on his warpath?
And people wonder why some people think that the reason we go to war in Iraq has something to do with oil....
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Wounded King, posted 09-11-2003 9:16 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 68 of 119 (56391)
09-18-2003 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Silent H
09-18-2003 3:17 PM


As Bill Maher put it (and I'm sure I'm paraphrasing)
Saying Iraq was "supporting" Al Qaida is like saying that I'm "supporting" the Olympics because Bruce Jenner is sleeping on my couch.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Silent H, posted 09-18-2003 3:17 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 70 of 119 (57136)
09-23-2003 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Rei
09-22-2003 3:14 PM


Re: Not to mention...
Rei writes:
quote:
And of course, if we want to get on the subject of torture (which, given that in Iraq we hardly found anything worse than electric shock devices
Not quite. We have found some of the torture chambers of Uday and Qusay and they were not just places to apply cattle prods. This isn't to say that this was systemic throughout Iraq, but it does show that in some very high places in the government, torture was fairly sophisticated.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Rei, posted 09-22-2003 3:14 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Rei, posted 09-23-2003 1:58 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 72 of 119 (57310)
09-23-2003 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Rei
09-23-2003 1:58 PM


Re: Not to mention...
Rei responds to me:
quote:
Reference? What apart from isolation cells, hooks from the ceilings, and electric shock (again, all quite common in the middle east) has been found?
The Guardian reports Uday's treatment of the Iraqi Olympic team including beating the feet of those on the soccer team. In 1988, he beat his father's bodyguard to death in front of partygoers. And then there was his personal "pleasure palace" where he would take women from off the street to rape them.
The Free Press News Services reported that Qusay is the one who initiated the "prison cleansings" where overcrowding was solved by killing off the inmates, usually by a bullet to the head but often by dropping them into shredders. Regarding Usay, they report:
Rights groups and exiles have accused Uday Hussein of extensive torture. His methods included dropping victims in acid baths or dragging them over gravel and then dunking them in sewage pits.
If I recall correctly, it was an ABCNews investigation into some of the cells and it showed more than just "hooks from the ceilings." While they were cleaned quite well, residue on the walls showed that quite a lot was done other than electrotorture.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Rei, posted 09-23-2003 1:58 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Rei, posted 09-23-2003 8:21 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 74 of 119 (57346)
09-23-2003 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Rei
09-23-2003 8:21 PM


Re: Not to mention...
More evidence:
Stephen Henderson for Knight Ridder
Uday, the elder, was the brash playboy who had his guards round up girls as young as 14 for him to rape. He tortured anyone who displeased him, according to a recent Time magazine article, often using a medieval device called a falaqa to hang victims upside down by their ankles while he beat them on the soles of their feet. He once killed one of his father's bodyguards because he had introduced Saddam to the woman who would become his second wife.
Time also reports that Qusay was witnessed shooting four Shia Muslims in a roundup, giving orders that the rest of the 300 be killed as he left.
From an article from the May 25, 2003 article in Time:
With Iraqis free to speak more openly, it has become clear that the malignancy of Uday's behavior actually exceeded that of his reputation.
[...]
And what of the supposedly more civilized Qusay, who in recent years usurped his older brother's position as Saddam's heir apparent? Specific tales of Qusay's transgressions are rarer, but it is only in comparison with Uday that Qusay, 37, could be regarded as a moderate man. He, too, had an eye for women, though he is not known to have raped any. Like his brother and father, he lived extravagantly, even as Iraqis survived on government food rations. And he did his share of killing.
[...]
A family friend says the day Uday discovered the Internet was "a black day for Iraqis," because he used it to learn of torture methods from other ages and lands that he decided to try. He would lock victims in coffins for days at a time, says the source, or put them in pillories. According to a family friend, he also liked to have offenders beaten on one side. Then he would order medical tests and have the thrashings continue until the kidney on that side had conclusively failed.
Uday's favorite punishment was the medieval falaqa, a rod with clamps that go around the ankles so that the offender, feet in the air, can be hit on the bare soles with a stick. A top official in radio and TV says he received so many beatings for trivial mistakes like being late for meetings or making grammatical errors on his broadcasts that Uday ordered him to carry a falaqa in his car. Uday also had an iron maiden that he used to torture Iraqi athletes whose performance disappointed him.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Rei, posted 09-23-2003 8:21 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Rei, posted 09-24-2003 2:16 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 75 of 119 (57347)
09-23-2003 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Rei
09-23-2003 8:21 PM


Re: Not to mention...
Oh, by the way, Rei:
I am not using Uday and Qusay as an excuse to invade Iraq. Indeed, I agree that the invasion was poorly thought out on practically every level and that pretty much every justification made by this administration to do it has been shown to be exaggerated or outright false. Claims that we should invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons were lip service at best...especially when we compare the statements to those made during the Balkans.
Is Iraq better off without Sadaam? I don't know. I do know that this administration had no idea what they were getting into and has no idea how to proceed from here.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Rei, posted 09-23-2003 8:21 PM Rei has not replied

  
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