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Author Topic:   Jerry Falwell dead.
Modulous
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 136 of 224 (400926)
05-17-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
05-17-2007 9:09 AM


Re: Falwell Biographer/Friend A Homosexual
The same guy who said:

For ten years we've been collecting samples of your dangerous and misleading rhetoric against homosexuals. We have file drawers filled with your antigay mass-mailings to raise funds and mobilize volunteers. We have audio and video collections of your antigay sermons and your antigay radio and television broadcasts. Coupled with your regular appearances on Nightline, Geraldo, and Larry King Live, and your ability to attract media attention (as you did with Tinky Winky) you have become one of the nation's primary sources of misinformation about homosexuality and homosexuals. You are saying things about us that are NOT true, terrible things with tragic consequences in our lives and in the lives of those we love.

What is being celebrated is the end of a 'dangerous' voice which gave rise to 'tragic consequences'. I'd be truly celebrating if he recanted rather than died instead of merely being happy that there will be no more from him now.


This message is a reply to:
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scoff
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: 01-20-2006


Message 137 of 224 (400984)
05-17-2007 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
05-16-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Reaping What He Sowed
Save your eulogy for the many deluded by his rhetoric of hate. It's wasted on me.

This message is a reply to:
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scoff
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: 01-20-2006


Message 138 of 224 (400985)
05-17-2007 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
05-16-2007 10:20 PM


Re: No matter how evil
And before you scoff and tell me that this won't happen, I will tell you that it is already happening right now.

Please, PLEASE, don't include me in the list of the mentally infirm.

My comment was supposed to convey Falwell was reaping the hatred he sowed.


This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13057
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 139 of 224 (400993)
05-17-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
05-16-2007 8:24 PM


Re: Some Notable Condolences
Nator writes:

Again, this is just more evidence of you people tending to defend the members of your own team, no matter how horrible they are.

Whats that supposed to mean? Who is my team? Who are you people? We are only running one race...the human race! ;)

I wouldn't spew hatred for Madelyn Murray O'Hare, who caused a lot of damage herself in her day.


This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 140 of 224 (400994)
05-17-2007 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Buzsaw
05-17-2007 9:14 AM


Re: Those Good Old Days
frequency of severe disasters, especially destructive tornadoes, floods and fires is far greater than ever in the past.

Surely you mean the fatalities from such - as a result of increasing population and population densities.

You don't REALLY mean that there are more tornados now than in the past? How would you prove that? How would you show that there weren't 500 tornados a day 800 years ago when no one was keeping records?


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 141 of 224 (400995)
05-17-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
05-17-2007 9:23 AM


Re: A caveat
We're having destructive disasters at home and loosing personel in overseas wars. We're beginning to loose God's blessings partly due to the kind of Bibliophobia

I fail to see any logic in this, Buz.

You are suggesting that we are losing troops in Iraq because we don't have God's blessings?

But, the people that put us in Iraq were LITERALLY told to go there by Jesus himself! They are fighting in the Middle East chiefly because they are religious fundamentalists who believe that their actions are leading to the "end of days".

If the Fundamentalists don't have God's blessing, then who the hell does?

As the nation's majority thumbs their noses at God

Would this be the "moral majority"? The ones railing against homosexuality while simultaneously tea-bagging male prostitutes?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5829
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 142 of 224 (401000)
05-17-2007 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nator
05-15-2007 10:00 PM


Re: A caveat
He hurt this country deeply

Jerry Falwell hurt this country deeply? I was unaware that Rev. Falwell had enough influence to hurt the country deeply. As far as I can tell, he wasnt so much as a blip on the radar screen. I think the indelible stain you envision for Falwell is largely manifested in your mind.

I'm so very glad that he's gone

Yes, you and others have made that quite clear.

He was a disease

And who/what is the cure?


"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 143 of 224 (401003)
05-17-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Nuggin
05-17-2007 6:25 PM


Re: A caveat
Nuggin,

Would this be the "moral majority"? The ones railing against homosexuality while simultaneously tea-bagging male prostitutes?

I agree with everything you say, but I have to ask, what is "tea-bagging"?

Would I want to admit to it in polite conversation? :confused:

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5829
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 144 of 224 (401005)
05-17-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by subbie
05-16-2007 12:06 AM


Re: A reply to nemesis's "caveat"
I shall assume that your aspersions included me as well

Not so much, no. If you'll notice, I responded to those who vehemently attack the man even in death. I guess my gripe is one of simple courtesy and tact. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I happen to think that being a gentleman and a lady about the matter is far more effective in getting one's point across than slinging invectives all over the place.

There was tact in how you presented yours. Seriously, if anyone didn't like the man, that's fine. Its the fact that a couple people verbally disemboweled a dead man that particularly bothers me.

The second thing that bothers me is the over-exaggerated claims about him. These people are acting like Jerry Falwell held the world in the palm of his hand, twisting his moustache, and hatching diabolic plans to destroy the earth. I mean, come on. What's up with all the comparisons to Hitler. Hitler? They liken Falwell to Hitler! Give... me.... a.... break.

I never supported the systematic deprivation of basic human rights

That's because in a world of relativity, basic or complex human rights don't exist beyond mere opinion.

hating millions of people for the color of their skin

An interesting thing for a white man to be a racist and also endorse Allen Keys, a black man, for president. If Falwell was a racist, its news to me.

I don't hate Falwell, although I hate most of what he did. Life is much too short to waste it on hating.

Now that's the ticket. I wish some of the other people shared your sentiments. There is alot of people that I personally don't like. But far be it from me to cheer their death in order to assuage my own hate.

I don't expect you to understand that, since you and Falwell both claim to pray to the same myth

I guess we all can't be as pragmatic and even-keeled as you are.

Nemesis Juggernaut starts a slow clap for Subbie followed by a rousing standing ovation

If there is a loving god, and if that being doesn't comdemn Falwell to some period of suffering for the damage he did to people who never did a thing to hurt him, then I say in all confidence and sincerity, that I am a better judge than that god is.

"Its so easy to feel elite. Its so easy to feel conceit, when you judge yourself" -Lou Koller

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos


"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 145 of 224 (401010)
05-17-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
05-17-2007 7:39 PM


Re: A reply to nemesis's "caveat"
Not so much, no.... There was tact in how you presented yours

Thanks.

I never supported the systematic deprivation of basic human rights

That's because in a world of relativity, basic or complex human rights don't exist beyond mere opinion.

I might take exception to your claim that it's "mere opinion," but even giving you that, it doesn't change my assessment any, since it is itself, just my opinion.

An interesting thing for a white man to be a racist and also endorse Allen Keys, a black man, for president. If Falwell was a racist, its news to me.

If that's all it takes for someone to convince you he's not a racist, you haven't been around much. In any event, I'm willing to accept the possiblity that later events in his life suggest that he changed his views on racism. However, given that as late as the 1980s, he was still arguing against sanctions against Apartied and called Desmond Tutu a phony, if this change came, it was much, much later than anyone else I know who calls himself a "man of god."

Now that's the ticket. I wish some of the other people shared your sentiments. There is alot of people that I personally don't like. But far be it from me to cheer their death in order to assuage my own hate.

Slow down thar, buckaroo. While I don't hate him, that doesn't mean I don't cheer his death. I agree with what someone else said in this thread, that it's a tragedy that he didn't change his views on a lot of things, but it was far past the time when anyone would reasonably expect him to. Absent such an epiphanous moment, I fully would have expected him to continue his venom, and I'm glad he's no longer here to do so.

I do sympathize with his family and their loss. And I'd certainly never dream of sending them any communication detailing my thoughts on his passing; that would be heartless. But then, I don't think anyone who frequents this site would do that. I feel comfortable expressing myself here, as I don't expect that the Falwell clan will likely be passing through on their way to the funeral.

"Its so easy to feel elite. Its so easy to feel conceit, when you judge yourself" -Lou Koller

Heh. My Wife would tell you, nobody is as hard on me as I am.

"When I judge myself, I feel neither elite nor conceit. I am replete with defeat." - subbie.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 146 of 224 (401011)
05-17-2007 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
05-17-2007 7:39 PM


Re: A reply to nemesis's "caveat"
Isn't it just amazing how those who curse the ACLU for being anti-christian, when pointed to the fact that the ACLU has defended christians, go on to say that "oh, that's just a publicity stunt, they actually are anti-christian"(paraphrase), and then turn around and say "Falwell's not racist--he supported a black for president!".

In one case, the argument is invalid, in the other, it is valid. interesting, that.

the argument I'm talking about--the one or a few cases in which person X supports position Y decides to support the opposite of Y actually means that the person supports the opposite of Y, not Y.

In other words, if a racist supports one or a few black man(men), that he means he's not racist. (never mind the rest of the mountain of evidence supporting that the person is a racist).

and NJ, this is pointed at you. I seem to recall you being the one starting a thread within the past year on the ACLU and how it's anti-christian. If you didn't argue that position, this is directed toward those who did.


This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 147 of 224 (401016)
05-17-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
05-17-2007 7:39 PM


Re: A reply to nemesis's "caveat"
What's up with all the comparisons to Hitler. Hitler? They liken Falwell to Hitler! Give... me.... a.... break.

Perhaps a clarification: I'm not saying Falwell was a genocidal mass-murderer. Clearly, he was not.

I'm just saying he believed a certain group of people to be evil, simply for being who and what they are. Just like Hitler hated gays and jews and anyone else who didn;t fit his demented German-superiority complex. I think that anyone who hates a group of people for the way they were born (becasue sexual orientation is NOT a choice or a lifestyle) is a monster in the same way. This includes Falwell, Robertson, the KKK, neo-nazis, the so-called "moral majority," half of the Republican party, a significant portion of fundamentalist Christians...well, I'm sure I could find ways to go on, but I think my point is clear.

This sort of intolerance is the same as that which led Hitler to eventually begin his "Final Solution." And when a religious leader starts saying "group X is responsible for bringing God's wrath on us!" he encourages violence and intolerance against that group. And the next step in that line of thinking is, in fact, another Final Solution.

Am I anti-Christian? Only the segment of Christians who hold such horrific ideals. I'd be against anyone of any religion who thinks the same.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 148 of 224 (401017)
05-17-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by mark24
05-17-2007 7:28 PM


Re: A caveat
Would I want to admit to it in polite conversation?

You really would not. Rather than go into a graphic description here, I suggest you google the term and hope for a site that doesn't have pictures


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 224 (401019)
05-17-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Hyroglyphx
05-17-2007 6:55 PM


Re: A caveat
Jerry Falwell hurt this country deeply? I was unaware that Rev. Falwell had enough influence to hurt the country deeply.

Do you even know who we're talking about? Jerry Falwell? One of the nation's most preeminent conservative Christians? Died a few days ago?

Because when you say he's "not even a blip on the radar screen", you're making it abundantly obvious you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. From Wikipedia:

quote:
In 1956, at age 22, Falwell became the founding pastor of the Thomas Road Baptist Church of Lynchburg (TRBC). Thirty-five adults were recorded as being in attendance at the church's first meeting in the elementary school that he had attended, and the offering was $135.[4] The church subsequently found its first permanent home in a structure which had been a Donald Duck Bottling Company building, a short distance from the location of what was at that time Brookville High School, subsequently Brookville Elementary School, and then the first campus of Liberty Baptist College, an institution of higher learning associated closely with the church and with Falwell. From these beginnings Thomas Road Baptist Church has grown to a membership in excess of 24,000, based in a 6,000 seat auditorium and an additional 1 million square feet of educational space. The church holds four services per week.[9] In July of 2006, TRBC celebrated its 50th anniversary and inaugurated its new building near Liberty University.

The September 21, 1987 issue of Time noted that Falwell "plunged" down a 163 foot "hellish" water slide in fulfillment of "a promise made during a fund-raising drive that netted $20 million for the debt-ridden PTL."[11] This drive eventually took The PTL Club, PTL TV network and Heritage USA from Jim Bakker.[12] "Bakker arranged for Falwell to take over PTL in March in an effort to avoid what he called a "hostile takeover" of the television ministry by people threatening to expose a sexual encounter he admitted to having seven years earlier with church secretary Jessica Hahn."[13]

Photos circulated of the event at the Typhoon waterslide at Heritage Island (located at Heritage USA). Falwell remained fully clothed. It was selected as "The Best of Photojournalism" in 1987 Pictures of the Year book presented by the National Press Photographers Association. In September 1999, The Associated Press selected it as one of the top 100 national photos of the century.[14]

In 1994, Falwell released the straight-to-video pseudo-documentary The Clinton Chronicles: An Investigation into the Alleged Criminal Activities of Bill Clinton. The video connected Clinton to a theoretical conspiracy involving Vincent Foster, James McDougall, Ron Brown, and an alleged cocaine-smuggling operation. Despite the theory's having been discredited by all major investigations, the video's sophisticated production techniques served as effective exposure, and sold over 150,000 copies.[25]


Yeah. Just a "blip on the radar screen." Honestly, the things you say sometimes, NJ. Makes me wonder if we live on the same planet.

There's no doubt whatsoever that Jerry Falwell was one of the main authors of the rise of Christianism within the Republican party; if you're one of those under the impression that there's not a wall of separation between church and state in this country, it's directly because of Falwell's regular pronouncements to that effect. If you think he's not even a "blip", then I invite you to tune into your local Christian radio station, where they're eulogizing the man 24-7.

I don't know where you got the idea that this man had little or no influence. If he had so little influence, what was he doing during all those White House visits? Do you think the Bush administration brought him in every other week to sweep up the place?


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 224 (401021)
05-17-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
05-17-2007 7:39 PM


Re: A reply to nemesis's "caveat"
These people are acting like Jerry Falwell held the world in the palm of his hand, twisting his moustache, and hatching diabolic plans to destroy the earth.

No, but he had an incredible amount of influence which he used to block civil rights for several classes of people. He pushed forward a political and religious agenda that was divisive and destructive.

And moreover, because of the "Rev" in front of his name, he was almost completely immune to challenge. He could say whatever he wanted and people accepted it, because of his station. (That's a pretty good racket.) Of course, when he committed fraud against his own congregation by issuing phony "church bonds", his station insulated him from prosecution.

He was a figure with whom politicians were falling all over themselves to curry favor with. Even John McCain, who called him an "agent of intolerance" in 2000, was genuflecting to kiss his ring (and his ass) just 6 years later. No influence? I don't see how you could possibly support such a contention.

I mean, come on. What's up with all the comparisons to Hitler. Hitler?

It's an apt comparison - two figures who rose to power on a tide of demagoguery, by demonizing a powerless minority. For Hitler, it was the Jews - for Falwell, it was the gays. (And also the Jews. He wasn't terribly creative, I guess.)


This message is a reply to:
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