Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,763 Year: 4,020/9,624 Month: 891/974 Week: 218/286 Day: 25/109 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A question of numbers (one for the maths fans)
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 21 of 215 (325159)
06-23-2006 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by riVeRraT
06-22-2006 10:01 PM


riVeRraT writes:
You can't subtract .9999999.... logically. That assumes infinity has an end.
You can't subtract it long hand, one digit at a time. But what is to prevent us from subtracting all digits at once? ever heard of math recursion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2006 10:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 6:34 AM fallacycop has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 22 of 215 (325160)
06-23-2006 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-22-2006 8:05 AM


what's your point?
CK writes:
In this first post - you will get nothing from me but a question - why I have asked the question we can discuss later once we have had some discussion about it.
Are you planning on explaining why you posted that question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 06-22-2006 8:05 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by CK, posted 06-23-2006 5:29 AM fallacycop has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 55 of 215 (325507)
06-23-2006 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 6:54 AM


Re: infinities work fine
riVeRraT writes:
It's not like I don't get why .9999...= 1, I do. I just don't agree with the math.
That's seems to be self contradictory. If you get why 0.999...=1, how can you not agree with the math?
I can prove that 0.9999... = 1 also
1/3 of a circle with the circumference of 1 yard = 0.333333....
1 yard = 0.914400 meters
1/3 of 0.914400 = 0.3048
0.3048 meters = 0.33333....yards.
So 0.3333... is a whole number.
Sorry but I can't help it. 0.333... is not a whole number.
Now do it in reverse, and you will find that 0.99999=1
You seem to have only a tenuous grasp of what a mathmatical proof is supposed to look like.
The real problem lies in that we do not have an accurate way of expressing 1/3 in decimals.
isn't 0.333... accurate? why not?
If 0.9999... is representing something in the universe, and our universe is infinate, then the number can go on, and on without ever being 1.
The digits don't have to go on and on one at a time. they can come all at once. ever heard of math recursion?
If the universe is finate, then 0.9999... will eventually come to an end, then infinity only exists in our subjective minds.
That means that 0.9999.... = God.
can you explain to me how did you sneak god into the conversasion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 6:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:04 AM fallacycop has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 58 of 215 (325511)
06-23-2006 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 6:34 AM


riVeRraT writes:
There is nothing "all" about infinity.
could you answer the question instead of dodging it?
I also do not neccesarly think infinity actually can exist either. It's only a thought, not a number.
Sure it is not a member of the Z set. But not being an integer number doesn't make infinity non-existent.
How can you subtract 0.9999... from 9.9999 digit by digit if the digits have no end? You will never solve the equation. The numbers have no end, therefor the equation has no end.
ever thought there might be other ways to do it besides longhand? ever wondered why it's called longhand?
So if .9999...=1 then infinity does not exist.
How does 0.999...=1 prevents infinity from existing?
This only happens if the number is actually representing something.
Is it impossible for a number to not represent something?
We are talking about pure math here. The fact that the number may or may not represent anything is completely besides the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 6:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 11:58 PM fallacycop has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 59 of 215 (325512)
06-23-2006 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 7:00 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
riVeRraT writes:
The problem is that you are using a finite symbol to represent infinity.
Try writing it out.
Ok I'll try.
0.999...
Ok, I'm done. what was the fuss about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 7:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 11:56 PM fallacycop has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 69 of 215 (325527)
06-24-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 11:56 PM


Re: Saucy numbers
Of course you knew I meant without the finite symbol, so you are just wasting our time now.
I'll take it as you can't, and let you off the hook.
You should be more open to other peoples points. I'm not wasting anybody's time , I don't think. I was just pointing out that the elipses are a valid way of representing a never endding self repeating decimal number. there are other valid ways to represent numbers besides the longhand one. There are even ways to represent numbers that do not repeat themselves over and over again. π is one of them.
Edited by fallacycop, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 11:56 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:15 AM fallacycop has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 79 of 215 (325538)
06-24-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 11:58 PM


riVeRraT writes:
Infinity is a subjective concept. If infinity exists, then so does God.
0.999... = God
I don't have a problem with god's existence as a subjective concept. that would amount to refusing to even accept sentences with the word god as being meaningfull ,like (statement: I believe in god. anser: you make no sense). I don't think anybody would go that far. except that you do. you're like (statement: 9.999... -0.999... = 9 answer: your math makes no sense).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 11:58 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 82 of 215 (325543)
06-24-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 12:15 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
I was just pointing out that the elipses are a valid way of representing a never endding self repeating decimal number
Well wasn't that the point of my statement?
The problem is you are expressing an infiniate thing, with a finite symbol.
Why would that be a problem? Π for instance is a way of representing a never ending never repeating number with a finite symbol. do you see a problem with that?
Edited by fallacycop, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:42 AM fallacycop has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 84 of 215 (325546)
06-24-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 12:16 AM


Re: Great Rat.
I was actually going to say, that 0.999... can be one, if it represents distance. Eventually it will come back on itself.
choosing to use the number to represent a distance is completely besides the point here. we are talking about pure math here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:43 AM fallacycop has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 89 of 215 (325553)
06-24-2006 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 12:36 AM


Re: Great Rat.
I have seen people reason away 2+2=4, why can't what I am saying have some validity to it?
There may very well be a point to what you are saying. But if there is, you have not made it yet. where is the beef of your logic? we say that 1.0 is a way of representing a number, and that 0.999... is another way of representing that same number. Just as 1/3 is a way of representing a number a and 0.333... is another way of representing the same number. you seem to have objections to the former but not to the latter. why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:36 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 8:28 PM fallacycop has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 91 of 215 (325555)
06-24-2006 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 12:42 AM


Pi
All that means is the pie can never be fully resolved in a 10 based number system. That doesn't mean that can't be resolved.
Yes it does. Ever heard of irrational numbers?
For practicle purposes, say like in construction, 3.141 is good enough to build even the tallest building.
practical purposes are completely besides the point. we are talking about pure math here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:42 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5546 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 92 of 215 (325557)
06-24-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by riVeRraT
06-24-2006 12:47 AM


circles and lines
If it went on forever, then you could take an infinite line and make any size circle out of it. But if you travel down an infinate line, you never go over it twice.
that would depend on how you define your infinite line and on how fast you are traveling. there are ways of making a one to one correspondence from every point in an line to every point (but one) in a circle of any size.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2006 12:47 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024