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phil Guest |
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Author | Topic: Most Influential Person. . . | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Abshalom Inactive Member |
Assigning human traits to God is a form of idolatry.
Obviously, the Holy Spirit cannot be characterized as having human traits either. This is an age-old problem characteristic of mankind ... to assign animal or human traits to their gods. It's nothing more than inventing an icon, and therefore it constitutes idolatry, ie., the worship of a animistic or humanistic god. Again, the original question was "who is the most influencial person (human being) of the millennium?" Not "which god most influenced mankind over the last millenium?"
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
Okay then, let's just say you are right, I will restate my choice of person (as in - only people):
My most influential person of all time : Jesus Christ.
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Abshalom Inactive Member |
Mike:
Notice I did not take issue with you saying originally that Jesus was the most influential person, or among the most influencial people of all time. Jesus is a person. His ranking within the list of "100 Most Influencial," or whatever number, may be debatable, but I will not debate that he is a person. Peace.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
Fair enough.
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
I will have to agree with Mike Regardless If Jesus was real or not he very well seems to be in the top 10 of most Influential People.
Although I don't Believe in him I will admit he has an impact on people. He seems to have Influenced both good and bad in People either way he has been very Influential [This message has been edited by DC85, 02-14-2004]
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
mike the wiz writes:
quote: Well, we don't have any real evidence that Jesus ever existed. This is in contrast to Mohammed. And if Jesus is influential for inspiring a couple billion people, then Mohammed is pretty influential for inspiring more than a billion people, too. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Abshalom Inactive Member |
Hello, Rrhain:
In Message 21, you chide Mike with " Well, we don't have any real evidence that Jesus ever existed." Yet I don't notice any question of (in in Message 6 of 21) Phil's offer of Shakespeare as one of his nominees for "most influencial person." Do we have absolute proof of William Shakespeare's existence? If we're gonna limit nominees to those persons about whom there is absolute proof of individual existence unattributable to some other ghost writer(s), shouldn't we be fair? Peace. [This message has been edited by Abshalom, 02-15-2004]
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Actually we've got better evidence of Shakespeares existence than for Jesus - there was a TV series about the historical Shakespeare recently and there are plenty of survivng documents - including his application to have his father granted the status of "gentleman".
While I'd pretty mcuh say that there was a historical Jesus it would be rther hard to say how much influence he really had. I would tend to the view that others - notably Paul who never even met the historical Jesus - who had the real effect on history.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Do we have absolute proof of William Shakespeare's existence? Well, we have his will and his marriage license. We have a few lawsuits he was involved in. We have a vast array of contemporary accounts of his plays and performances. Of course, we have all those plays he wrote. Even if you buy into the authorship controversy (and you'd have to be crazy to), nobody argues that Shakespeare didn't exist. Just that he didn't write those plays they said he did.
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phil Guest |
quote: One website I visited had Mohammed as the most religiously influential person ever (as in, the person who has had the most influence on religion/agnosticism/atheism/humanism, etc). It claims he was more influential because, unlike Jesus, he was a political leader as well as a religious leader. Newton was second, and Jesus was third.
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Verzem Inactive Member |
I think it is quite safe to say that Jesus was very influential whether he, and the things attributed to him, really existed, or not. But, while acknowledging that influences can last long times and overlap millenium markers; I don't think Jesus is a valid answer to the original question. The question was for most influential person of the last millenium, not the last two. Ergo, Jesus doesn't qualify. Similarly, if some people a thousand years from now are discussing the same question, Newton wouldn't qualify for them.
Therefore, I would have to go with the scientists and inventors being mentioned as good choices. Newton may be at the top for me. Just my $.02. Verzem
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Abshalom responds to me:
quote: Yes! There is absolutely no doubt that William Shakespeare existed. We have his christening record, his registration of marriage, and all sorts of contracts signed by him. The "controversy" over Shakespeare is not if he existed. It's over whether he wrote the plays that are attributed to him.
quote: Of course. Do you have any record anywhere of the birth or death of Jesus that isn't the Bible or pulled from it? As a child he was supposed to have been as knowledgeable of the scriptures as the wisest sage such that he completely shocked the rabbis. He wandered all over performing miracles such as raising people from the dead. Surely somebody somewhere would have written this down. And while we have evidence of Pilate's existence, we can't find any piece of documentation from the time period that indicates there was ever any brouhaha over a man named Jesus. The only documents we have anywhere that make any reference to Jesus were written decades after the fact and all of those that aren't outright frauds can eventually be traced back to the Bible. Well, you can't use the Bible to justify the Bible. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Abshalom Inactive Member |
Yawn
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
What a brilliant answer! Rrhain obviously can't handle debating skills like yours.
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Abshalom Inactive Member |
Sorry for my totally unenthusiastic response to what is a worn-out and weary diatribe often offered to refute the existence of a man that I myself find it hard to believe ever existed when one considers the paucity of the record.
Of course my point was not to illicit the same old tired stock response as I was only pointing out that one should at least be fair regarding two personalities whom are often disputed as to being the authors of the great works to which their names are assigned. "Tradition tells a story that William Shakespeare did come into this world and did part from it on the same date 23rd April (St Georges Day) But some do tell it different and say that William Shakespeare was born on 6th April 1564 but this was never proved as no birth certificate was ever produced, so Shakespeare's birth date is noted to be 23rd April 1564." [http://www.geocities.com/wanabee_you/life.html] http://www.metroactive.com/...o/07.96/shakespeare1-96-7.html says about Shakespeare: ... three signatures in different handwriting. Six similar though far from identical portraits. No birth certificate or school records. The biggest name in English literature is also one of the greatest enigmas. The same William Shakespeare who left behind the most revered body of work in the history of the language left less physical evidence than O.J. Simpson. His will grants his wife his ‘second best’ bed, but you'll look in vain for mention of the precious manuscripts.He lacks the background, breeding, and education to write such astounding lyrics. His plays have a depth and a magnitude so great that only a university-educated man of high status could have. As a matter of fact, his parents and daughters were probably illiterate, let alone able to send him to a university. On Shakespeare’s birth certificate, his name is spelled ‘Shaksper,’ and six signatures undisputed to be authentic are all spelled differently. Moreover, those six signatures are written in a horrible, virtually illegible scribbleone appearing much closer to that of an illiterate than to that of the most renowned writer ever.Shakespeare retired to Stratford in about 1613, at the pinnacle of his career. Why? There are portraits of Shakespeare, but none that were done during his lifetime. Why was he not painted, as other authors at his time were? His death entry in the parish registry lists him as a ‘Gent.’ Not a dramatist, not an actor, but a ‘Gent.’ Originally a sack of grain was pictured on his headstone; in 1747 (when Shakespeare was gaining popularity), the sack was replaced with a quill pen. There was not even a eulogy for him the day he died. (Epstein 277-281)De Vere, Earl of Oxford, is regarded as the most likely of the bunch to actually be the famed author. Some of the better arguments for him include: A peer of de Vere praised him, calling him a ‘Man whose countenance shakes spears.’ One of his coats of arms depicts a lion shaking a broken spear. The speaker in the sonnets was a middle-aged man obsessed with his own mortality, yet Shakespeare was in his thirties when he ‘supposedly’ wrote them. Oxfordians date the Sonnets between 1593 and 1603; since de Vere died in 1604, he would have been about the right age. (Epstein 289-291) We can go on ad nauseum whether either Jesus or Shakespeare existed or authored the copious volumes attributed to them. I really could care less regarding either. I enjoy both their contributions regardless of who wrote them. Again my point is ... both or neither ... don't single out one as not worthy of being influencial due to the suspect nature of their historic authenticity. Peace. [This message has been edited by Abshalom, 02-17-2004]
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