Cartoons and common sense

Ya know, If allah really gave a rat's ass about some dumb cartoons, don't you think he could burn down his own embassy?Radical islamists, and Islam in general, need to grow up. It's time to join the 21st century. Grow a sense of humor, a thicker skin, and stop taking any BS opportunity to blow something western up.I'm not saying that's the entirety of islam, but when I see someone stand up for this kind of asinine behavior, or attempt to justify it, it makes me sick.The world is a whole lot bigger than your silly little beliefs (not you specifically, but everyone in general, and islam in particular).If god is real, I'm sure he can hold his own without a bunch of idiot zelots torching buildings and making women wear bee keeper suites (thx to Bill Mhar on that one).This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-06-2006 04:56 PM

I don't see how you could possibly make a case for psychological damage on this one. If they were 'psychologicaly' damaged by some dumb cartoons, in a country far FAR away from them, then they obviously have bigger issues.Most countries in the 'civilized' world protect satire. Which is what a cartoon amounts to, a joke. All this proves is that islamists, and fundamentalist islamic nations, can't take a joke.I think it's funny how some of the govts. involved petitioned the danish govt. to shutdown the newspaper in question. Goes to show the warped concept of freedom of speach and freedom of the press some of those regimes have.This is all a display of ignorance at it's finest.

Yep. Ain't that a convenient excuse? Yet more evidence that it is all soooo stupid. I'm with you there bud.... up to a point...I think the whole mideast needs a brain overhawl including the jews, western policy, muslems, etc.All of it. It needs to go.The theocratic mindset that permiates the countries in that region is anathema to human progress. Yes, I agree with you too. But wouldn't you agree that some cultures (beliefs) are more prone to it than others? It just sort of ticks me off where people say things like:"Oh, it's understandable that they torched the embasy, it's insulting to them, blah blah blah."It's just stupid at that point. Nah, I'm speaking about the theocracies that support that sort of practice. That promote instatutional ignorance and gender (racial?) inequality. That's what I'm speaking about, and the whole burka thing is a prime example.

No I don't. It's a fairy story mixed with history about a nomadic bandit and goat herder who wanted to be rich and famous. Then the whole thing got out of hand. HAHAH! No it's not. It's a dumb ass book written way to long ago to even consider it relevant to our day and time. Maybe he should find another purpose, that way he could be happier. Fuck what is written. What is written was written by a bunch of goat herders in a desert somewhere in the middle east. I could care less, and you shouldn't care either. Fuck them too. They are idiots. Riots and destruction over some pen and ink? Get a life!I don't hate moslems, I don't support the USA's policy's, but I will call a spade a spade. The fact is that the extremist ideology, and theocratic mindset, is a throwback to the days of mohammed and his sand-pirates. No it's not, it's called violence. Speech comes from the mouth and the pen. Maybe if mohamed used more of that, instead of his scimitar, these extremists wouldn't have such a stupid example to follow. Isn't the free world amazing? We can draw pictures of whatever we want.We even draw nasty pictures of ourselves! We draw nasty pictures of our president, our religious figures, jesus, and who ever else we damn well please... and you know why?STICKS AND STONES WILL BREAK MY BONES, BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT ME! I show no respect for stupidity. I show no respect for a mentality that says "if you doodle a funny picture of my favorite sky man, I'll kill you!". Screw that man. That's BS. Yes it is, and proud. Hopefully, the longer you live in the USA, you will appreciate it more and more.This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-06-2006 07:27 PM

Very good post brenna.

I think I already vented my spleen enough. Sorry for the outburst, the news of these things has made me more mad than usual. I will refraim from participating in this thread unless in a civil tone.

This is an interesting point holmes. And I often struggled with it myself. Because I too like cultural diversity, different ideas, etc.But I can't say that every culture deserves equal respect, or should be tolarated and preserved. Imagine we had Cannibals from New Guinea living in New York. Do we need to respect their cultural identety by allowing them to kill and eat people?What about the Aztecs? Heck, what about theocratic minded Christians who want to go back to the OT as a law book?I don't think those mentalities are to be tolerated or respected. When I look at the Mideast, and I think of the way they treat women, the way the punish crime, the way they indoctrinate their young, I don't think "What a beautiful culture.", I think they need to get their head out their butt and join the modern world.So no. I don't respect any of them or their ideologies because what they want, is far from pluralism, they want to stifle individuality and imped human progress and wellbeing. And in this case, I am not talking about the moderates, I am talking about the majority over there. Like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and even Palestine, (and now increasingly Iraq).And this has nothing to do with me, it has to do with all of us. If humans want a brighter future we have to let go of fanaticism, ignorance, and superstition. I think we can all agree to that. Again, I am no fan of US foreign policy, but I am no fan of Iran either. I don't need to respect them, their govt., or their culture. Because it is backward, and counterproductive to human progress. It promotes hatred, intolerance, ignorance, and superstition.I would never uphold their rights to behave that way in the name of pluralism. I don't think this is a tit for tat kind of situation. I also don't think it is merely extremists. It's all pervasive over there. And it's not necessarily their fault. Their very govt. promotes the kind of hatred and intolerance that is expressed in moments like this.I also don't condone violence at WTO protests either. I agree that we shouldn't be poking our noses into other peoples cultures. But again, I don't have to respect a stupid culture when I see one. I will gladly call a spade a spade.I don't have to say the Aztec culture was just as good as ours and that human sacrifice was just a nice form of cultural pride. It was barbaric, ignorant, and stupid.Just like the burkah and all it symbolizes.This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-07-2006 10:18 AM

The Times & The Sunday TimesHow mature And a perfect example of how this hatred is institutional. After all, newspapers in iran are state run.This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-07-2006 10:23 AM

Page not found – The SunAh, the wonders of a pluralistic society with many beutiful and vibrant cultures living together in peace. What a beutiful culture: This one is especialy charming (NOTE: the hat): Freedom of speach allows them to do this, and I actually support it. It let's them make total asses out of themeselves. Finaly: Again, I will call a spade a spade, these people are stupid, ignorant, zelots and idiots. They need a brain transplant in the worst way. And nothing anyone says will ever make me respect them.

Maybe. I see your point, but at the same time I cannot help feeling people are a bit to ready to 'embrace' and 'look past the extreamists' etc.I don't advocate violence, I advocate education. These people, these extreamists, need to learn about the history of their religion, society, and the development of the western world.Their view on things is so hopelessly warped that there is no real grounds to rationalize at this point. I also don't see why we should be expected to respect their views on any level.As I posted to holms, why would we respect a people with beliefs so reprehensible and ideas so backward? Would we respect the aztecs and their practices?I just think we need to be more realistic on the issue. It's not extremists. It's a pervaisve ideology in their culture, rooted in their history, and their religion.

Yes. That people don't need to feel they need to respect any culture, or idea, that comes along in the name of pluralism.That islamists, and moslems in general, need to actually learn real history outside of the koran. That irrational beliefs and superstitions need to be abandoned if we ever want peace.Maybe I should open a thread about that.

Oh no, that's not my position. I think there are plenty of wackjob christians that go crazy over stupid crap. Like "the last temptation of christ". I think they are a bunch of idiots too

Ok, we are in agreement here. See, this may be out of scope for this thread, but islam is a violent religion in as much as Judism and Christianity is. The inherent flaw is a teaching that the creator of all that exists has given you special favor over everyone else. The reason I say this is uncivilized, is because beliefs like this threaten civilization as a whole.And I am not talking about moslems, I am talking about all religions. The minute we give up our rational thought and begin beliving we have claim to divine truth, is the minute we start taking to the streets and stoneing people and torching buildings.And while I agree that different civilizations may have different ways of going about things, I don't agree that all of them are equal. I think, as time goes by, a 'natural selection' of sorts will weed out backward cultures. Note my emphasis. Thank goodness most nations have left behind these mideival concepts of honor. (or have they?).Just to head things off, I don't think the USA is perfect, or Europe, or any western nation. We have dumb laws, dumb customs, etc. But I can surely make a value judgment based on which society produces happier, more productive, people. I certainly don't see that comming from the moslem world. Ya, I think it's interesting too. But I think the main point was that the other guy agreed to get eaten, throwing it into an odd grey area . In any case, I don't think anyone is considering allowing cannibals to stalk the subways with spears and tranquilizer darts. First, it's fine if they keep it in their own country etc. As I said before, I think time will have the better culture overtake the lesser. I see this being done by example and not by the fist.As far as why it matters, it matters because a large population of the world is of the mindset that the other part is not selected by god. They don't respect the very things you are advocating holms. And they promote ignorance and superstition over rationality. I'm sorry to say that this affects us all, such beliefs (no matter where they are manifested) hold us back. Agree wholeheartedly. But it goes further back than that. This goes way back to the crusades and to the moorish invasion, and to probably mohammed himself. One group of fanatics agrevating the other back and fourth untill this very day and age.We got one group of fanatics in the white house, another in israel, and then a whole slew fanatics in the middle east.The problem of Islam, is a problem we see everywhere, supperstitious, ignorant people who want to impose their silly beliefs on everyone else. Yep, and arguably, we are the reason the saudis are still in power, and the isrealies are a bunch of jerks. And I agree with you. Still doesn't mean that the fundamentalist theocratic way of thinking isn't dumb and a bad model for a society. Yep, I think the people who say that are stupid, and the jews themselves are a bunch of numbnuts. I'm saying all these people, need to wake up and throw away their holy books.The minute they all realize that we are all the same, we are all human beings, on this little ball of dirt in space, then maybe we can start talking about getting along. But I don't see how we can ever expect peace when there are groups of people in this world that whole-heartedly belive that the very universe was made solely for them. No, I don't. But last I checked there was quite a rash of theocratic regimes in power. I can tell you that there are enough fanatics in all those countries to exact devastating political influence. We are suffering it here, in israel, and the moslem world. No. They can do what they want as long as they don't go bombing my buildings or threatening my life. I also don't have to say that their culture is any good. If they have a detestable culture I will gladly say so. No. But I think the protests we have seen over this are just the manifestation of a deeper problem. This violence has been going on long before there even was a WTO. Again, that's fine. I don't want them bombing my cities or threatening my life.I also don't think we should be bombing theirs. I disagree. I think we can say something is stupid when it is blatantly untrue and contrary to reality. A culture that is based on such things, will be a stupid culture. An islamic society which says a woman can be stoned to death for showing her ankles, a man can be buldozed over if he is gay, or a theif should have his hands and feet cut off for stealing, is a stupid society. And we can go into details of why that is if you want. I think we can say one culture is better than another. Is there a thread on this? It's actually an interesting question and I think it's where this is headed anyway.

This is an issue with all religious govt's. Who gets to interpret the Quran to come up with the laws?Sounds like a civil war to me EDIT: Some examples:Wahhabism:

quote:

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* The invoking of any prophet, saint or angel in prayer, other than God alone (Wahhabists believe these practices are polytheistic in nature)
* Supplications at graves, whether saints' graves, or the prophet's grave
* Celebrating annual feasts for dead saints
* Wearing of charms, and believing in their healing power
* Practicing magic, or going to sorcerers or witches seeking healing
* Innovation in matters of religion (e.g. new methods of worship)
* Erecting elaborate monuments over any grave

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Wahhabis ban pictures, tobacco, photographs, and celebrating Muhammad's birthday, among many other things, based on their interpretation of the hadith. Many Wahhabi men grow long beards and wear their traditional dresses above their ankles.

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Sunni:

quote:

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There are four Sunni schools of law:

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* Hanafi (based on work of Abu Hanifa)
* Maliki (founded by Malik)
* Shafi'i (founded by Shafi'i, a student of Malik)
* Hanbali (founded by Ahmad bin Hanbal, a student of Shafi'i)

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A madhab is a particular tradition of interpreting Islamic law, or shari'a. The schools were started by eminent Muslim scholars in the first four centuries of Islam. Most Sunnis believe that there are no living jurists of the stature of the founders of the four madhabs. Contemporary scholars can comment on the traditions, but they cannot start new ones. This belief is called "the closing of the gate of ijtihad".

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A madhab is not to be confused with a religious sect. There may be scholars representing all four madhabs living in larger Muslim communities, and it is up to those who consult them to decide which school they prefer.

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Some Sunni Muslims say that one should choose a madhab and then follow all of its rulings. Other Sunnis say that it is acceptable to mix madhabs, to accept one madhab's ruling regarding one issue, and accept another madhab's ruling regarding a different issue.

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Some modern Sunni, such as liberals, reject some or all of the intricate structure of hadith and shari'a erected over the centuries. Some Salafis reject strict adherence to traditional jurisprudence and others follow the Hanbali school of thought.

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Shi'a:

quote:

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Shi'a Muslims conclude that Ali was appointed by Muhammad to be his successor and the subsequent leader of the Muslims. In effect, Shi'a Muslims believe that to follow the true Sunnah of Muhammad it is obligatory to support the successorship of Ali. Sunni Muslims, on the other hand, believe that Muhammad did not choose a successor before his death. Upon Muhammad's passing, two of his companions Umar and Abu Bakr had a meeting in saqifah wherein they decided on the successor's identity as being that of Abu Bakr, Muhammad's best friend, whom they then introduced to the rest of the Muslim community as the first caliph. This claim to the successorship was disputed by Ali himself, the Banu Hashim of whom he was head, as well as many other supporters. However, Sunni Muslims stand by Abu Bakr's caliphate and are of the opinion that he held his office legitimately. This difference between following the Ahlul Bayt (Muhammad's household/family) and Sahaba (Muhammad's companions) has shaped both parties' views on some of the Quranic text, the hadith, personalities in Islamic history, and more. Hadith accepted as authentic by Shi'a have a high proportion of narrators from the Ahl al-Bayt, while hadith accepted as authentic by Sunnis do not.

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(all quotes from the wiki)I don't see how you could hope to make a stable govt. out of this with each group considering the next group over heretical.This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-07-2006 02:55 PM

What are you talking about? It seems the moslems were over reacting since the get go. Heck, bullet no. 3 is death threats to the cartoonists!It started out peacefull, but it seems to have escalated, and not because of the danish. It seems to have something to do with the delegation of Imams.