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Author Topic:   Cartoons and common sense
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 259 (284079)
02-05-2006 2:08 AM


I am simply stunned at the level of silliness and posturing on the part of {politically correct self-censor}concerning the appearance of a cartoon depicting a caricature of mohammed the prophet.The one in particular cartoon I am describing concerns the prophet mohammed depicted wearing a turban shaped like a bomb.
I mean do any of these people think for themselves or do they get puppet implants at birth to allow control by others of their vocal apparatus? The claim by the {politically correct self-censor} is that their prophet declared that no images of his likeness be produced in order to prevent idolarity.
I have 3 questions for these intellectually challenged persons. First,Is there some logical progression that leads you to think that a cartoon that is insulting to the prophet mohammed is somehow going to be misunderstood and therefore worsipped as an idol? Are you so bereft of reasoning and constructive thought?
As for the number 2 question, cannot Mohammed defend himself? I would imagine such a significant figure in the Islamic world would be capable of being above whatever ridicule lesser people may through at him eh?
And finally number 3. Could you tell me what makes you think that the rest of the world needs to consider sacred the same things you do or,indeed, do you demand that we follow your way of thinking?
In any case get a grip and grow up.
-----
Adminnemooseus adds the following info and link, which was supplied by AdminNosy in the PNT version of this topic.
Mohammed Image Archive
This site has the original cartoons. It also suggests that the uproar is over a booklet spread in the middle east showing the Danish cartoons and 3 additional ones that are much more offensive. There is a link to scans of the booklet at the bottom of the above site.
Be warned - The above linked page has 6+ MB of .jpg files, of which the ones of interest are at the bottom. If you a slow internet connection like I do, it's going to take quite a while to load. - Adminnemooseus
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-05-2006 02:04 AM

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 259 (284080)
02-05-2006 2:10 AM


People, let's treat this topic with careful thought and responses
Topic promoted from PNT by Adminnemooseus.
Note subtitle.
Adminnemooseus
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-05-2006 02:46 AM

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 259 (284088)
02-05-2006 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-05-2006 2:08 AM


Zombies or Freethinkers?
I went to the site and looked at all of the cartoons, but I got sidetracked by the South Park episode of Blanetology! It was hilarious!

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 259 (284090)
02-05-2006 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-05-2006 2:08 AM


I agree with your basic sentiment. It does seem a little bit overblown. And in free societies with free press someone is going to say something that someone else doesn't like. The MidEast Islamic community certainly didn't seem to mind producing images we do not like seeing (burning flags and dummies, and in some cases real people).
However:
1) As a correction it is not that they believe a negative cartoon image might end up being revered as an idol. He's not supposed to made an image of at all, both for that reason as well as to be made fun of. If you've seen some of the signs they've been holding, it states that insulting mohammed is insulting to them.
2) This is not inherent to islam. Perhaps you do not remember Last Temptation of Christ by Scorcese. There were the same protests and threats of violence. To see the movie I had to move through a large throng of rabid Xians, and with the open threat of bombing or shooting. I can't remember, but I believe one theater was actually bombed. And this wasn't even an intentionally demeaning portrayal of Christ. He was just shown to be something other than Rambo-Christ.
3) This is not inherent to the religious. Generally mentioning anything which is taboo, especially if one is demeaning to a popular "idol", will result in a backlash. Even the Far Side cartoon picturing Jane Goodall resulted in some scientist types to get their panties in a twist until Goodall came out in support of the cartoon. Heck, we have laws against certain images being shown in open newspaper formats (including cartoons), which means society simply slaps people in jail without mobs having to rise up to do it.
I agree anyone rising up against cartoons or other forms of speech and imagery seem to be lacking some commonsense, perspective, and an interest in free speech. Its just that the blame hits every community I know of.
By the way you do know the US govt has sort of come out in support of the demonstrators, essentially criticizing media that publish such imagery. I think its a shame that leaders (all over the place) aren't helping play this down.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-05-2006 01:02 PM

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 5 of 259 (284095)
02-05-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-05-2006 2:08 AM


In case you were not aware, I decided to get some info on Last Temptation of Christ to compare. From this article on the movie...
Martin Scorsese's 1988 film The Last Temptation of Christ was based on Nikos Kazantzakis' 1955 novel in which Jesus appears as a tormented, fearful young man confused by sex and uncertain of his path in life. The film was condemned by virtually every Christian denomination, both here and abroad, was protested, picketed, subject to boycotts and bomb threats, and excluded from the titles carried by the huge Blockbuster Video chain.
Joseph Reilly of Morality in Media described the film as "an intentional attack on Christianity," and James Dobson of Focus on the Family warned ominously, "God is not mocked." In Hollywood vs. America, a classic account of the depredations Hollywood has visited on America since the 1960s, Michael Medved described The Last Temptation of Christ as rising from the "urge to assault the cherished recollections of even universally esteemed figures in our culture." Medved compares the film to King David (1985), the only other recent Hollywood film to treat biblical material, in which David is shown as "thoroughly embittered and disillusioned at the end of his life."
Same shit, different day/culture.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 259 (284117)
02-05-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
02-05-2006 7:50 AM


The last temptation of Christ
That film was one of my favourite films about Christ. Even when I was an ardent biblist and creationist.
It's the only Jesus film where you don't know what is happening, or what is going to happen, plot-wise.
Being condemned by nearly every Christian denomination, by no means equates as most Christians. For even if one of each denomination condemned it, you could still say, "The film was condemned by virtually every Christian denomination".

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 259 (284128)
02-05-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
02-05-2006 10:42 AM


Re: The last temptation of Christ
Being condemned by nearly every Christian denomination, by no means equates as most Christians. For even if one of each denomination condemned it, you could still say, "The film was condemned by virtually every Christian denomination".
My point remains however. It is most certainly true that not all muslims are upset or demonstrating about the cartoons. A segment is and they are violent about it, just like the Xians regarding LTOC.
As an aside I disliked that movie. I almost wanted to punch out a protester afterwards. If they hadn't made such a big deal about it, it's likely I wouldn't have gone to see it at the theatre.
This is not to say you are wrong for liking it, its simply aesthetic differences. I honestly like movies like BenHur and some images I have seen from Gibson's Passion seem interesting (though I must reserve judgement till I see it).

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 259 (284129)
02-05-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-05-2006 2:08 AM


I don't see anything particularily unreasonable about the muslim reaction to these cartoons. If the reaction is consistant with the tenets of their belief system they why would they be expected to react any differently? And the person who asks them to "be reasonable" is simply expressing the tenets of his own belief system. Neither are wrong in their reaction unless their belief system is wrong - and it seems that won't be 'proven' one way or the other, for anyone, this side of the grave.
For my own part I wonder at Christians demonstrating against things like "The Last Temptation" There was a poster campaign run recently in Ireland by a betting chain which featured a painting of the last supper modified to show the protagonists playing cards. The tenets of that faith say that Christ would be hated and ridiculed and killed. Whilst he cannot be killed ever again, the hate and ridicule is as alive and well now as it was in his day. When I saw that poster my reaction was one of sadness for those who would smile at the joke. Jesus said that they know not what they do - and thats good enough for me. Forcing your beliefs on another was not Christs way. Nor does demonstrating against people who hate and ridicule Christ (even if they might argue that they don't) have any biblical warrant. On the contrary, we are asked to pray for them and to love them. Such Christians, assuming they are that, might well consider that prior to their conversion they hated and ridiculed Christ themselves. Kettle/pot territory
This message has been edited by iano, 05-Feb-2006 05:09 PM

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 9 of 259 (284141)
02-05-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-05-2006 12:07 PM


iano,
I don't see anything particularily unreasonable about the muslim reaction to these cartoons. If the reaction is consistant with the tenets of their belief system they why would they be expected to react any differently?
If I choose a fictional/historical character & threaten to kill people if muslims portray them, they'll probably be pissed off too.
The reason, I am told, that the prophets can't be portrayed as an image is to prevent idolatry. So don't portray them, then. But I want to be an idolater & they can mind their own fucking business.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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 Message 10 by iano, posted 02-05-2006 1:30 PM mark24 has replied
 Message 12 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2006 2:04 PM mark24 has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 259 (284148)
02-05-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mark24
02-05-2006 1:07 PM


But I want to be an idolater & they can mind their own fucking business.
Which was precisely my point...
And the person who asks them to "be reasonable" (or "mind their own business" or whatever) is simply expressing the tenets of his own belief system

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mark24, posted 02-05-2006 2:01 PM iano has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 11 of 259 (284150)
02-05-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
02-05-2006 1:30 PM


iano,
iano writes:
I don't see anything particularily unreasonable about the muslim reaction to these cartoons.
mark writes:
But I want to be an idolater & they can mind their own fucking business.
iano writes:
Which was precisely my point...
This makes no sense.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 02-05-2006 1:30 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 12 of 259 (284151)
02-05-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mark24
02-05-2006 1:07 PM


But I want to be an idolater & they can mind their own fucking business.
Isn't going crazy at idolaters their fucking business?

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 Message 9 by mark24, posted 02-05-2006 1:07 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by mark24, posted 02-05-2006 2:09 PM Modulous has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 13 of 259 (284152)
02-05-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Modulous
02-05-2006 2:04 PM


Modulous,
I could say the same about them...
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 14 of 259 (284153)
02-05-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by mark24
02-05-2006 2:09 PM


I think that's iano's point.

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Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 15 of 259 (284154)
02-05-2006 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
02-05-2006 2:11 PM


Modulous,
In which case you'll have to explain. This has shot so high over my head it must be in orbit.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2006 2:11 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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