Developing Countries: Birth Control?

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Because ever since I've opened this thread my opinion's been nothing but attacked. Everyone has been laying into me with both fangs out, and the only people who even partially agree with me have just dissapeared, probably wanting no part in the slamming you've been laying on me!

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Oh whah, wah, whah.If you can't stand the heat...

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Bill Gates is the world's wealthiest man, and he worked his ass off for every penny he's worth!

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That's not true at all.At a certain point in wealth creation, money starts working for you. Through investments, your money earns more money and you don't do any work at all even though you are getting richer and richer.Now, Bill Gates had great ideas and is a great entrepeneur and businessman, but it is just completely false to say that he actually "worked by the sweat of his brow" for every penny.Jon, I'm going to give you some unasked-for advice.There are a lot of pretty basic life things you don't know about yet because you haven't lived in the world long enough to know them.The next time you feel your righteous anger swelling up within you in response to one of these posts that question or criticize your position on a given issue, perhaps you might think about asking questions regarding why people hold the opinions they do. This would possibly help you learn from people who know more about the world simply because we've lived in it longer.Now, before you have yet another swell of righteous indignation, let me say that you are a bright kid but you are inexperienced and ignorant. We were all inexperienced and ignorant at one time, too, so it's not like we don't know how it is.I just think you'd serve yourself better by taking advantage of the wisdom and experience that you have at your disposal here.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

And it takes a LOT of work to get to that point. And having gotten to that point is a reward for the hard and risky business work you've done. And besides, sweating labour isn't the only kind of work out there. Mental work can be equally as demanding. When was the last time you started a billion dollar software company? I mean, if it were so easy and you don't do any work at all, why aren't more people starting such businesses? Is this the only thing you know how to say? Time and time you've said I am young and ignorrant. If you ask me, I think it's just a cop-out so you don't really have to address any true problems. Just slap a label on my morals and beliefs and you can sit back and relax.Well, my morals and my world experience aren't related. I mean, how damn old were you when you first decided murder was wrong? Morals are internal, instinctive, something you feel and know is right. And, when I grow up and experience the world I will see it your way, eh?This thread isn't about me, it isn't about you, and it isn't about Bill Gates. So, I think we should get back to the topic and perhaps you could explain your solution and how that will not unequally shift the balance of power in the world more than it is. How it won't deprive individuals of their basic human rights, and how it will not add a significant amount of strain on an already stressed-out planet.J0NEdited by Jon, : Spelling/grammar

If you adopt a baby from one of those countries. Will you adopt a healthy one, or one dying of some strange incurable disease? And if you do adopt a healthy one, and we all followed you and your "wisdom" and adopted babies (adopting the healthy ones), what would be left in the developing countries?About all that other crap, I may have responded to other people's opinions in a reply to you. Sorry.J0N

Schraf, you're not going to get through to him. For now, he's too angry to understand what you are saying. Just give him a few days to cool down. I've talked to young people enough times to know once they are angry you might just as well talk to a wall.

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Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

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The thread about this map can be found here.

You're a dick, and I'll never agree with you or your opinion. No matter how long I "cool down". Hell, I ain't even angy; are you?

Jon i apologise if i appeared to be at you with my fangs, it was certainly not my intention, I do like reading most of your posts as you have a lot of passion which has dwindled out of me over the years... i promise that the fangs are reserved only for phisical defence!!in answer to your comment
(qs)I'll get back to answering all of your questions, when you all tell me why only the people in developed countries should be able to have children and further the existance of their society. And remember, if you adopt them out of that society, and in to your own, it does nothing to further their own society(qs)if a parent in undeveloped countries can supply child with basics it needs to live then i have no quarrel! I see where your coming from about them not reproducing but if only the people who could feed and medicate the child had children, the population would still grow, and maybe at the same rate as there may be less starvations and illness'. Im not sure if it would work like that and im sure i am being idealistic! i know it seems to you unfair on the other people, but children ARE our future and they will not have much future if their children are starving to death and dying from diseases they are passing on!

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And it takes a LOT of work to get to that point. And having gotten to that point is a reward for the hard and risky business work you've done.

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Yes, but that runs counter to your initial claim, that every penny Gates has is due to the sweat of his brow.Furthermore, if someone is born wealthy, like Gates' kid, they never have to work at all. All they have to do to remain spectauclarly wealthy is to pay the right people to properly manage their portfolio. What is THEIR money a "reward" for?The majority of wealthy people, jon, are not "self made". Those people are rare, and are a part of the mythology of the "American Dream". Most rich people in America are born that way.

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And besides, sweating labour isn't the only kind of work out there. Mental work can be equally as demanding.

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Did you notice that I put the phrase "sweat of his brow" in quotes? That indicated that I was using that phrase euphamistically to mean "earned all his money by actuvely doing work."After he got to a certain point in wealth accumulation, he did not have to work at all to get richer. That's the point.

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When was the last time you started a billion dollar software company? I mean, if it were so easy and you don't do any work at all, why aren't more people starting such businesses?

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LOL! One doesn't "start" a billion dollare software company! Gates started his "startup" like every other startup company; nobody knew from Microsoft back in the early days. Dozens or more of those are founded every month, by people just as knowledgeable and innovative as Gates. Timing and luck are important factors in who makes it big in business and who only makes it OK, or who doesn't make it at all.

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Time and time you've said I am young and ignorrant.

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Well, you are! So was I at your age. There was no possible way I could know what I do now 20 years ago because I hadn't lived in the world long enough to learn them.Some things can only be learned that way, jon.[qyuote]If you ask me, I think it's just a cop-out so you don't really have to address any true problems. Just slap a label on my morals and beliefs and you can sit back and relax.[/quote]...except that I do address the issues you raise.

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Well, my morals and my world experience aren't related.

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LOL! Of course they are, jon. This is true for any thinking person who reflects upon world and personal events.

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I mean, how damn old were you when you first decided murder was wrong? Morals are internal, instinctive, something you feel and know is right.

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That is only partially right.How damn old were you when you decided slavery was wrong? It wasn't all that long ago that many people had no moral problem with slavery.Morals change with cultures, too.

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And, when I grow up and experience the world I will see it your way, eh?

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No, not at all.When you grow up and experience more of the world you will, hopefully, not make as many factual mistakes that are a direct result of your lack of knowledge.Look, it's not a matter of opinion if Gates earned every penny by working for it. He didn't, period. A great deal of his wealth is created without him lifting a finger.I certainly didn't understand that concept when I was your age, so I'm not expecting you to have understood it either.

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This thread isn't about me, it isn't about you, and it isn't about Bill Gates. So, I think we should get back to the topic and perhaps you could explain your solution and how that will not unequally shift the balance of power in the world more than it is. How it won't deprive individuals of their basic human rights, and how it will not add a significant amount of strain on an already stressed-out planet.

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I already answered your questions, jon.

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And remember, if you adopt them out of that society, and in to your own, it does nothing to further their own society.

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If you adopt a baby from one of those countries.

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Yes. Isn't that what you asked about? Didin't you ask:"if you adopt them out of that society"?

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Will you adopt a healthy one, or one dying of some strange incurable disease?

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Well, most diseases that kill children in developing countries are not "strange, incurable" ones, but treatable ones. To say that the two choices are "healthy children" and "children dying of strange incurable diseases" is a strawman.Also, it is highly unlikely that every single one of the healthy children will be adopted out of a country by people in developed nations, so that's another of your strawmen.In addition, freeing up more resources for the remaining people will likely raise the standard of living for the people who are there now and those who follow.

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And if you do adopt a healthy one, and we all followed you and your "wisdom" and adopted babies (adopting the healthy ones), what would be left in the developing countries?

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More money per person to raise their standards of living, so that the children that are subsequently born will be less likely to contract preventable diseases, or starve to death.Now, for the third time, will you please answer the question:So, because we cannot help ALL of the starving children, we shouldn't bother to help reduce the number of them living in poverty at all?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

Gasby writes: Jon replies:

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You're a dick, and I'll never agree with you or your opinion. No matter how long I "cool down". Hell, I ain't even angy; are you?

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ROTFLMAO!!!!Wow, jon, you do realize that you just confirmed gasby's statement about you, don't you? Especially the part where you stick your bottom lip out and petulantly declare, "I'll never agree with you or your opinion." I can almost hear you stamping your foot.Thanks, that was a great laugh to start my day with. Teenagers are hilarious! I'm sure I acted just as obnoxious as you; I must have been a real dick.LOL!!! Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : fixed spelling

some of us don't live the lifestyle you describe.bill gates is a product of his society. he could not be where he is without his education, his birth, and so many other things. i'm not suggesting he owes anyone anything. but he and all other excessively rich people have two problems. first. they continuously lobby congress to eliminate their taxes, so they don't even pay their fair share to running our nation. second, our activities have made them their fortunes. our demands and (in most cases) the labor of people in underdeveloped nations being paid less than a living wage, not to mention the people here making less than a living wage. they have used millions of people to get where they are. they do owe those people something. further, if we all die of global warming (thanks to those hummer manufacturers and all the rich assholes who drive them, not to mention our dear dictator and his friends at haliburton) then we can't buy their blessed, wonderous bullshit that makes our lives oh so much better. they have a responsibility to humanity just like the rest of us. my responsibility is to drive less, walk more, throw (more stuff now because of the new waste management power thingummy) less away, spay or neuter my pets, take advantage of my education, be a mentor, keep my cpr certification up, and give to charity. bill gates has a bigger responsibility because of his greater resources. we all owe each other. we have the responsibility to care for each other and to prevent our world from killing us. if bill gates doesn't fight aids, it will kill his children and his line will fail. if bush doesn't fight global warming, the polar ice caps will melt within 50 years and our world will be entirely different and we might all die.you say they have the right to keep every penny of their hard earned money. i say that every one of us owes our fellow man concern.not to mention that most of their hard earned money came from not paying their janitors well enough and not paying their manufacturers enough.

Saying that is like saying senior citizens are easily manipulated. Now, if you start saying that to the seniors, how many do you think will still keep listening to your opinion, or give a rat's ass what you have to say?I respond as I do because you beat me down and call me ignorant. You attack ME over and over and over and over and over again, and you never attack the issue. And you STILL haven't answered what will happen if we adopt all the children out of poverty!And all this crap about getting through to me, as if the moment you explain it, I'll understand and agree with you and believe your solution. Once I experience life, I'll just see everything the way you do, won't I? You are all wise, aren't you?Now, you say it all the time about me being an ignorant unexperienced teenager, which is a constant personal attack. Now, I am not going to debate any points in here with someone who attacks me on a personal level.And to Gasby, you're close to crossing the line with being on a personal attack, and if you do, I won't likely respond to you either.Miss-cheif really didn't even attack me all like you guys did, and she even apologized for it. If only everyone could act in such a grown-up manner J0NI can certainly tell that it's your wish that we would be able to adopt them all in an ideal situation.

See, this is an unfair solution. The people who can feed and medicate their children are the wealthy privilaged people who live in developed countries, or the few who live in developing ones. To me, it doesn't seem right that these people should be the only people to reproduce. Because after they have done all their reproducing, and the developing areas haven't done any, who will be left? Only people who lived privilaged lives. It would be a nice way to permanantly get rid of the problem of poverty and starvation: we would simply be ridding the world of the starving poor people. But is that really fair?And besides, people in developing areas of the world can sort of support their children. You said kids are the future, and these people feel the same way. Look a it from their perspective. They can't completely support one child, and because of this, there is a chance that the child might become sick, and dies. Or that the little food they feed it won't be enough. Either way, they can only sort of support the child, and there is a slight risk that said child may die. However, they still need a child to grow old and support the family one day. So, they have six kids, knowing that many of them will probably die, but also knowing that at least one will survive. That way, if kid 3 dies, he has a quick and ready replacement: kid 4.I know, it may seem harsh and horrible to think of children being replaceable, but it happens like this all over the world in all sorts of animal communities. Cats have tons of kittens (so cute too ) and dogs, and fish. They all give birth to multiple numbers knowing that some will probably die.In developing nations things are not much different. Unlike developed countries and areas where each child is almost guaranteed survival, these people don't have the comfort of knowing that. They are looking to their future, and must create as many children as possible hoping that at least a few of them survive to continue their culture.The other option would be to work to bring all these developing areas into the status of developed. But, as I've remarked before, how can this be done without completely overstraining the world's resources? How can we have everyone in the world using resources and poluting as much as the developed countries already do?J0N

you're not helping yourself, Jon. your question/complaint I think she answered your question. oops.as to personal attacks: and you think he's close? you already crossed the line by calling him a dick. all he did was call you an angry teenager.all i have to say, is be careful jon, be very careful. insulting people and ignoring their answers doesn't bode well.

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Saying that is like saying senior citizens are easily manipulated.

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Many of them are, and it's through no fault of their own, but because their minds are failing.You have no excuse for your behavior. Well, not much of one. You at least have a choice.

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Now, if you start saying that to the seniors, how many do you think will still keep listening to your opinion, or give a rat's ass what you have to say?

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The thing is, I don't try to lecture seniors (except buzsaw, because he's so wrong about so many things). I ask them questions and try to learn from them.

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I respond as I do because you beat me down and call me ignorant.

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Wah, wah, wah.If you don't want to get your wrist slapped, then don't keep putting it out there unprotected so frequently.I mean, this is a debate board. If you don't want your position to be ripped up, don't put it out there.And you are ignorant. So am I, and so are we all, about many things. The sooner you accept this, the quicker you will learn.

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You attack ME over and over and over and over and over again, and you never attack the issue.

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No, I attack your position over and over and over again. I disagree with you and present facts and explanations for why I disagree. Your job then is to counter with different and/or better facts and explanations.I made it perfectly clear when I was debating and when I was giving you advice.

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And you STILL haven't answered what will happen if we adopt all the children out of poverty!

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That is a strawman, because nobody ever suggested that we adopt ALL the children out of poverty.I don't have to address arguments I never made and that you wished I had, hon.

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And all this crap about getting through to me, as if the moment you explain it, I'll understand and agree with you and believe your solution.

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Once again, you agreeing with me is not my goal.You presenting better arguments that are based upon facts, and also that do not rely upon strawmen, is.

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Once I experience life, I'll just see everything the way you do, won't I? You are all wise, aren't you?

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Stop behaving like a little child.I already told you once in messgar #83 upthread:

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Now, you say it all the time about me being an ignorant unexperienced teenager, which is a constant personal attack.

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No, it's just the truth. It cannot be otherwise, by definition.There's no shame in being inexperienced and ignorant, you know, except if you choose to willfully remain so.

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If only everyone could act in such a grown-up manner

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You mean like calling people "dicks"?Would that be behaving in a grown up manner, would you say?

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I can certainly tell that it's your wish that we would be able to adopt them all in an ideal situation.

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That would be interesting, since I never stated that this is my wish.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.