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Author Topic:   Schraf and Satcomm hand in hand against victimless crimes
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 46 of 54 (32626)
02-19-2003 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Ruth
02-18-2003 3:50 PM


Ruth writes;
quote:

The difference to me is in the labeling of sex as a service in the first place. It is a consensual act between thinking creatures, not some object that needs to be fixed, and not some twisted birthright.

I was using service more in terms of fulfilling a percieved need.
quote:

All said, I would have to concede that an individual can rent or sell a part of themselves for money if they desire, it is their body. Surrogate mothers and blood donors are technically in this same group.

For interest sake, do you have anything against surrogate mothers and blood donors? The difference, as far as I can see, is only that the need for these services are generally considered more acceptable. I personally think this has a lot to do with Christain perception of sex as 'filthy' and required only for procreation. I am not saying that all Christain beliefs this, or even that only Christains beliefs this.
quote:

I place more value on my ‘piano’, and it is a bit more than a sentimental attachment.

You are entitled to place as much value as you like to your 'piano'. However, why should other people be forbidden by law to sell or share theirs with whomever they want in exchange for cash?
quote:

I am thinking this over, but have to run, later, Ruth

Take all the time you need.
------------------
Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Ruth, posted 02-18-2003 3:50 PM Ruth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Ruth, posted 02-21-2003 4:01 PM compmage has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 47 of 54 (32681)
02-19-2003 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nator
02-18-2003 7:58 AM


quote:
You also handed me a great many claims and assertions which you choose to put out there with no back up whatsoever.
My first post used basic logic to unhinge the entirety of your argument. These were not assertions and do not require evidence, unless you want me to quote logic books. You have not and CANNOT prove causation, nor nonconsensuality, through the statistics you alluded to (even if true).
I made other claims to support the logical arguments, some of which I said were from personal experience (admitting this was anecdotal and so flawed as evidence) and the rest easy enough to confirm on your own.
Once accused of making claims with no support I asked you what claims you wanted me to back up. The above is your answer? And now its a GREAT MANY claims and assertions I left unsupported?
Fine, this post will hand you the support for almost all of my claims, besides the anecdotal. I will note that they could have been found by entering single topical words into the Yahoo search engine... like I said, easy to confirm.
Before I start I want to bring a bit of clarity to what we are discussing.
In the trade of ALL goods and services there has been, and always will be, three kinds of markets: A white market which is socially tolerated and legally sanctioned, a grey market which crosses boundaries of social and legal tolerance, and a black market which is wholly illegal, and often socially marginalized. Black markets by necessity are run by criminals and (falling outside of legal protections) often involves violence and intimidation to keep them operating.
If you need me to back this up I will, but I think this is pretty obvious... and anyway they are useful as working definitions.
Across the globe prostitution is almost entirely relegated to grey and black market operations, and thus suffer the problems coinciding with such operations. Your statistics come from a world where this is the case, and skews results about prostitution (as an occupation) by lumping all three markets together. Your accusations focus on the low to deep end of the grey to black markets.
My responses have been from my knowledge and interaction with the mid to high ends of the grey and white markets (the few whitish markets which do exist).
Maybe this accounts for your belief that I see everything rosy. But my position is just the same as someone who works in or is familiar with legitimate shoe making businesses and states you can't judge every business by the way Nike runs its business. (source:The Big One, 1997, Micheal Moore)
In short, you cannot condemn or draw inferrences about white market occupations, based on their grey and black market counterparts.
Your concerns about these markets are real and I share them. As a step towards this I believe that no one should use black market prostitutes at all, just as I'd recommend no one use the black market to get any other goods or services. And if one ventures into the grey market, do some research and avoid the Nike's of the P industry.
With this in mind, on with the show.....
quote:
First you would have to establish that the tendency of homo sapien males to want to sexually dominate females doesn't exist.
I would only have to do so if this feminist male-bashing position was accepted as an a priori fact. This argument is very similar (and just as accurate) as someone asking me to prove God doesn't exist.
That said, here's a close enough refutation of this position, and it is support for at least two of my claims (one of which you still have avoided discussing).:
http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html
*This is an article from scientific american (1995). It is one of many studies on the Bonobos. This one in particular is interesting as it challenges your assertions regarding P being based on male dominance. Trade for sex may very well have been a female solution to conflict resolution, rather than a male solution (which tends to be overt aggression and dominance of both males and females, and not trade).
While the above article points to trade in sexuality as an inherent (feminine) part of human society, the following contains support for my claims regarding its presence in the history of human civilization (with or without prudes).:
http://www.bigeye.com/sexeducation/prostitution.html
*Here are a variety of feminist articles on prostitution, including some interesting histories of P, which show how patriarchal conservatism and prudishness lead to P's illegality and the worsening of conditions for both male and female Ps. The lesson: prudishness does not create prostitution, but has shaped its nature into what we see today (the creation and growth of grey and black markets).
*There is also a piece by Dworkin. The flaws in her diatribe should be obvious. Unfortunately this is the same researcher bias Dworkin brought to her studies (which we will get to).
*An article on rethinking P follows my line of argument and I have created a separate link to its conclusion (the next link).
http://www.wise.infoxchange.net.au/...H/Pros2.htm#Conclusion
*You can read the whole article of course, but the conclusion cuts to the chase. This is from a feminist position and argues what I have been arguing with regards to empowerment issues of women in P.
So what about the stats? What do they say about prostitution?
Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault | ICASA
*This is the closest I could get to finding the study you cited, and it contains the same laundry list you provided so I assume this is where you got your reference from. If you have a link to the original study I am willing to look at it.
*Given that the study you mentioned is from 1985, my guess is many of these stats may no longer be accurate. Here are some other potential problems with the study: consistent definition of prostitution across study group, sources of subjects biased toward countries where P is illegal, not distinguishing between grey and black market Ps, and MOST IMPORTANTLY using skewed subject group (they are building from child abuse to prostition and then back). There are more but this is enough.
*The rest of the stats (from other studies) suffer from the same potential problems, and as they have been compiled are especially prone to mixing and matching subject groups and definitions of P. I might add that it is a non-neutral organization compiling these stats. They have a stats sheet on pornography as well which refers to studies I am very familiar with. A careful reader will note that the study results indicate porn as a whole is not harmful (prehaps beneficial), yet this group then restates the studies which refer to a select portion of porn (and its effects on a select group of violent offenders)to make it look like the opposite is true (their original position). Self-serving and circular. Biased. Since they come from my city I hope they at least do good work with helping those in need.
Looking for more stats, I ran into this.:
Page not found | Aurora Center
*Clearly biased "stats" and anecdotes from feminist leanings. Thankfully it cites a Dworkin study which I was talking about, I leave you to track it down and discover its inadequacies, though I give you these hints (no control group, skewed/biased subject group, a priori judgements used to support conclusion). One might notice that these "stats" cite Dworkin twice and the closest thing to a comprehensive study is limited to 3rd world countries and countries where prostitution is illegal (ie, totally exclusive of white markets).
To be fair, stats can be compiled and interpreted by anyone.:
http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html
*old stats, potential problems in methods may mean these stats are not wholly accurate... their first point attests to this issue. Yet a clear distinction between life in the white and grey, versus blackmarkets is evident. Admittedly these stats were compiled from a non-neutral source, which means that it may be biased.
If I have left any claim unsupported at this point, you let me know.
You have also accused my of having a rosy vision of prostitution which is totally untrue. Mine is realistic, despite my understanding and total acceptance of white market P.
Here are some studies which attempt to draw conclusions from the evidence regarding prostitution, and the problems that come with this occupation. You may note that while they never leave the grime of grey and black market issues (to float amongst the white clouds like I appear to do) they come to very similiar conclusions.:
We couldn't find that Web page (Error 404) - Department of Justice / Nous ne pouvons trouver cette page Web (Erreur 404) - Ministre de la Justice
*A sober view of prostitution in canada, with references to world models dealing with the issue. Note: The conclusion/recommendation of the study is to ease restrictions. Full decriminalization bawked at mainly because of fears the public would not accept it (morally, politically).
And more international in scope.:
http://www.walnet.org/csis/papers/redefining.html#1
*A sober view of the problems faced by prostitution and possible solutions, from an international perspective. Included is a very accurate portrayal of problems that remain where it is free (the white markets, including the netherlands). Truly, for your assertion that I have a Disneyland view of P, this is my answer. This is very close to my view of P, and the very real problems faced in the white through black markets of this occupation. The answer IMO (and theirs) is to cripple the grey and black markets by empowering the best of the white markets.
On a personal note, I find accusations of academic fraud or negligence disturbing, especially when I state what is anecdotal and what can be found easily. I take my credibility seriously (even on forums).
Next time I leave something "unsupported", let me know what you can't find and needs to be resolved. Although I still maintain my stance that I don't have to present opposing evidence and knock it down (ala Dworkin studies), that does not count as positive evidence at all.
holmes
[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-19-2003]
[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by nator, posted 02-18-2003 7:58 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 48 of 54 (32739)
02-20-2003 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Silent H
02-19-2003 12:49 AM


quote:
It has existed in all societies, over the entire course of human history. I might note it flourished in societies with more free sexual attitudes. And Bonobo research suggests that even before written history sex was a common method of barter for humans.
I am curious about your claim that Bonobos use sex in a similar way as prostitution. I was not aware that chimps have anything like an economic system in their societies. Do you have an article or paper to reference?
quote:
I have also pointed out that even people who don't like prostitution often end up granting or withholding sex within their relationships in order to get something they want (emotional or physical).
Pure bald assertion. You have no way of knowing if people who do not approve of prostitution are therefore more likely to manipulate their partner with sex.
quote:
This is trade even if no one likes to think of it that way.
I agree that it is trade; it is manipulative and cowardly.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Silent H, posted 02-19-2003 12:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 02-20-2003 6:50 PM nator has not replied

  
jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 54 (32765)
02-20-2003 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by derwood
02-18-2003 12:16 PM


quote:
I think the bell curve just got skewed to the right....
I apologize dearly assistant professor Page. Unfortunately the bottom page of my vocabulary calender was torn that day. I had no idea the word used had a different definition than intended. I don't believe I can cope with any more judgement by your red pen. Perhaps you could provide some tutoring?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by derwood, posted 02-18-2003 12:16 PM derwood has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 50 of 54 (32768)
02-20-2003 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by nator
02-20-2003 1:54 PM


quote:
I am curious about your claim that Bonobos use sex in a similar way as prostitution. I was not aware that chimps have anything like an economic system in their societies. Do you have an article or paper to reference?
I posted a reference to a Bonobo article in post 47. There are others online if you hunt around for them (type Bonobo, or Bonobos, or Bonobo sex into Yahoo), and some fascinating documentaries on Discovery and I think National Geographic.
Obviously chimps do not have "economic systems." They have conflict resolution strategies for differences in power and resources (namely food). This is what humans would have had to use before developing economic systems. Thus the Bonobo model may show what system humans used in their past.
quote:
Pure bald assertion. You have no way of knowing if people who do not approve of prostitution are therefore more likely to manipulate their partner with sex.
Whoops I reread that quote and realize I should have written it more clearly. What I was trying to say is that even people who don't like prostitution may "trade sex" (the granting/withholding of sex for goods/services/empowerment) in personal relationships.
This was not meant to say any group of people did this any more than any other group, just to point out the conflict resolution strategy of trading sex goes on outside of the overall economic system.
quote:
I agree that it is trade; it is manipulative and cowardly
Or it is human...
I agree if it is used solely for personal gain over one's partner it is manipulative (can't agree with cowardly) and not a good way to run a relationship.
But I'd also have to say that if someone is making you miserable you have a right to withhold sex until things are made better (though I would hope some communication goes along with that).
I think this tendency is somewhat inherent in our systems. When a conflict is occuring most people don't seem to want to have sex with their partner. But when things are resolved that makeup sex can be great! Or would it be better called social reward sex?
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by nator, posted 02-20-2003 1:54 PM nator has not replied

  
Ruth
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 54 (32826)
02-21-2003 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Silent H
02-19-2003 12:49 AM


quote:
Prostitution itself is simply the purchase of sexual entertainment and is not by necessity the "purchase of people." You can hire cooks to cook your food, masseuse's to massage your body, singers to sing for you, dancers to dance with you, and you can hire prostitutes to have sex with you.
The fundamental difference is that I don’t view sex as commodity. Prostitution is, however temporary, the purchase of another human’s body. It is true that a cook, dancer, masseuse, or singer use their body to provide a service. In prostitution the client is directly using the providers body and to me is incompatible with fundamental human rights.
The case of the happy working girl may be an exception but I think it is more of a rarity.
quote:
There are slaves pushed into all of those things, even today. The commodification of human life which leads to slavery, or virtual slavery, is repulsive and should be addressed through changing attitudes toward human life in general.
How many cooks, singers, or dancers are in the slave market? Prostitution is on the rise because it is frequently a last resort for many poor women around the world. I agree attitudes must change, this includes the attitude that supports using others bodies in whatever manner as long as you reciprocate with cash.
You want to compartmentalize the problem to ‘white’ markets. I don’t think this is realistic because the mere existence of white markets virtually guarantees a black counterpart. Say prostitution becomes legal worldwide tomorrow and many white operations open their doors. There would still be many unregulated and dangerous operations.
Trafficking in humans supposedly represents the world's 3rd largest criminal activity (after drugs and weapons.) The miscellaneous agencies aren’t suppressing these operations now, what makes you think they can handle the regulation involved?
Would most patrons choose the $250.regulated shop over the $50.unregulated shop that is likely around the corner?
Advocating prostitution encourages all of the negative characteristics of the sex industry (child/slave) because it encourages the idea of buying a body for personal use, even if you personally only think of it as entertainment.
quote:
Putting women who want to work as sexual entertainers (P, stripping, other) in jail does not change this attitude, nor does it help those stuck in slavery.
No, but it deters the practice in some small degree.
Prostitution is a key factor in the spread of HIV, the fear of contracting this has the clients fueling a younger and younger market. The practitioners and clients need much more education before you could allow legality, I suppose you expect that regulation would counter this.
All clients and providers would have to always engage in protected sex. Do you think this is a reasonable expectation for an industry that thrives on ‘having it your way’?
Do you think an open market would pay the desperate women who are already engaged any more than it does now?
quote:
This is an article from scientific american (1995). It is one of many studies on the Bonobos. This one in particular is interesting as it challenges your assertions regarding P being based on male dominance. Trade for sex may very well have been a female solution to conflict resolution, rather than a male solution (which tends to be overt aggression and dominance of both males and females, and not trade).
It seems more symbolic of pacification, not conscious trade; I’ll have to read more on it.
quote:
While the above article points to trade in sexuality as an inherent (feminine) part of human society,
I would think male and female have contributed to trade in sexuality and it is unnecessary and speculative to argue either side.
quote:
The lesson: prudishness does not create prostitution, but has shaped its nature into what we see today (the creation and growth of grey and black markets). .
Truly, for your assertion that I have a Disneyland view of P, this is my answer. This is very close to my view of P, and the very real problems faced in the white through black markets of this occupation. The answer IMO (and theirs) is to cripple the grey and black markets by empowering the best of the white markets.
I’ve yet to read through all of your links and I do intend to, but I think you do have an unrealistic outlook. To cripple the bad markets you would have to offer some alternative to the desperate women involved. These markets are not full of women that choose prostitution as a career. Poverty stricken areas and areas involved in conflict create even more sexual violence, more displaced people, more orphans and more prostitutes. You would need a very far-reaching economic plan to really eliminate the shady markets.
quote:
All I am saying is that:
1) people need to realize that OTHER people really do exist who don't draw their personal boundaries the same way
And I’m saying that prostitution encourages the disregard for those boundaries. It encourages dehumanization and sexual exploitation.
I respect your boundaries as you respect mine and try to be objective about the majority mentality.
quote:
2) that imposing one group's boundaries on another (even if they are the majority) is not the best policy for anyone.
You seem to think that legalization will open the minds of the masses. I think it is somewhat of a responsibility to protect human dignity, I never really thought of it as a case of majority rule.
quote:
When your sexuality is really open and free, and you enjoy having sex with many different people, it really doesn't seem that odd to make money doing what you like (and do anyway),
Are most prostitutes in it for the freedom first or simply in it for the money? Statements about job satisfaction are laughable when you step outside of the white area.
How will physical appearance effect an open market?
I think that if you place regulations and remove the stigma prostitution will still encourage unsavory practices. Maybe more because you are removing the flimsy moral constraints that are already in place, particularly in child prostitution. An open market would also offer specialty markets and that could be even more degrading.
I also think that regulation might help some of the ills associated with prostitution, so it may be a case of some being better than none.
I'm not sure if I find it an easy trade.
Ruth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Silent H, posted 02-19-2003 12:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 02-22-2003 1:07 PM Ruth has not replied

  
Ruth
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 54 (32827)
02-21-2003 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by compmage
02-19-2003 1:37 AM


quote:
For interest sake, do you have anything against surrogate mothers and blood donors?
I only object to surrogates as a general principle about reproduction, I don’t think we need any more babies than those that already occur naturally. I wouldn’t try to impose this opinion on others.
quote:
The difference, as far as I can see, is only that the need for these services are generally considered more acceptable. I personally think this has a lot to do with Christain perception of sex as 'filthy' and required only for procreation. I am not saying that all Christain beliefs this, or even that only Christains beliefs this.
I think you are right in your assumption about acceptability. It may have more to do with the life giving aspect of surrogates and blood donors, and the perceived necessity of sex.
quote:
You are entitled to place as much value as you like to your 'piano'.
I simply don’t like your analogy; it seems crass to compare a human body part to an object, but it does make me rethink surrogates mothers.
quote:
However, why should other people be forbidden by law to sell or share theirs with whomever they want in exchange for cash?
I’m torn between my views on personal rights and a more encompassing view of human rights. I find it interesting and am still considering it. And again have to run! : ) Ruth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by compmage, posted 02-19-2003 1:37 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by compmage, posted 02-22-2003 7:23 AM Ruth has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 53 of 54 (32862)
02-22-2003 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Ruth
02-21-2003 4:01 PM


Ruth writes;
quote:

I only object to surrogates as a general principle about reproduction, I don’t think we need any more babies than those that already occur naturally. I wouldn’t try to impose this opinion on others.

I'll leave this for another topic...it could get interesting...
quote:

I think you are right in your assumption about acceptability. It may have more to do with the life giving aspect of surrogates and blood donors, and the perceived necessity of sex.

I'm glad you agree.
quote:

I simply don’t like your analogy; it seems crass to compare a human body part to an object, but it does make me rethink surrogates mothers.

It is needed to illustrate my point. It is often easier for people to understand when the same logic is applied to something that most people don't have a strong emotional reaction to, like an object. I have a body/piano and I would like to share it with others, for a price. If both parties agree, where is the harm?
quote:

I’m torn between my views on personal rights and a more encompassing view of human rights. I find it interesting and am still considering it. And again have to run! : ) Ruth

Looking forward to reading your reply.
------------------
Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Ruth, posted 02-21-2003 4:01 PM Ruth has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 54 (32875)
02-22-2003 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Ruth
02-21-2003 3:29 PM


quote:
The fundamental difference is that I don’t view sex as commodity. Prostitution is, however temporary, the purchase of another human’s body. It is true that a cook, dancer, masseuse, or singer use their body to provide a service. In prostitution the client is directly using the providers body and to me is incompatible with fundamental human rights.
Actually one uses other people's bodies to deliver a good or service anytime one engages in trade. The only differences are degree of direct human contact (skin to skin), and who contacts whom.
Clearly there is direct contact with a masseuse. The idea that the client's not "touching back" acts as some sort of difference is purely an intellectual exercise (and mainly moral in nature).
But let's pretend that that the ability of the client to directly use the provider's body is incompatible with human rights and that is the basis for your proscription.
The reality of the world is that there are very few things which would require one to physically touch another's body anyway. Essentially there are three: to gain knowledge about the body, to heighten skills which involve contacting a body, and to gain pleasure from physical contact with a body (as made distinct from pleasure derived from viewing a body [models,dancers], or listening to a body [singing, oratory]).
Given your rule for proscription you would eliminate most work involving voluntary (but paid) human subjects for medical experiments (not to mention paid blood donors). This is not a career but it is temporary "work" in which rich companies get to use your body to test their products for relatively good short term cash. It is risky, perhaps riskier than prostitution, pays less than white market and grey market prostitution, and from my experience (as well as others I have known) much more degrading than prostitution. Uhhhhhh, believe it or not they do pay someone to be practiced on for repeated colonoscopies by entire medical staffs using their newest (untested) proctoscope. If that isn't close to being anally gangraped over an eight hour period, I'm not sure what else is.
You would eliminate most physical contact sport lessons, or assistants (such as paid boxing and wrestling partners), as well as dancing instruction (in cases where you must use the instructors body to learn).
So far the only distinctive difference from P is that pleasure is not gained, and it isn't always the genitals which are touched. To bring pleasure into the picture (but still without genitals) you would eliminate paid dance partners (dance halls, if any are still around), and kissing booths at carnivals and fundraisers.
Let's pretend that we all agree the above should be eliminated because they are against fundamental human rights, do you really think you have removed P, or have you simply reshaped the white market?
You seem to forget that part of the grey market includes massage parlors where it is, for all intents and purposes, a masseuse with free range privileges. The client does not touch the provider, though sexual activity does occur for money. There are also regular Ps who simply give head, which does not involve any contact from the client, and dominatrixes who are always untouched by the client, and then only touch them to deliver pain (which sexually gratifies the client).
My guess is you will find your "client directly uses provider's body" proscription inadequate. If you then find yourself stretching to remove massage parlors and Ps that give head, yet keep medical testing, physical trainers, and kissing booths, your issue is with pleasure and sexual pleasure at that.
Personally, I do not understand how allowing someone to touch one's body for money is incompatible with human rights. The irony is that you must consequently hold the opinion that throwing people in jail for doing this is somehow in line with human rights.
quote:
How many cooks, singers, or dancers are in the slave market?
I don't know, do you? Clearly there are people held in slavery as domestic help, or in service careers (very high in the garment industry). There are perhaps more cooks than singers and dancers these days, but so what?
quote:
Prostitution is on the rise because it is frequently a last resort for many poor women around the world.
Is this true, where did you get these statistics? I could not find any hardline statistics much less recent trend studies. Clearly though,as poverty rises prostitution would be a natural recourse and so rise with it. But that means poverty is the problem, prostitution would merely be a "symptom".
quote:
I agree attitudes must change, this includes the attitude that supports using others bodies in whatever manner as long as you reciprocate with cash.
So everyone must agree with you, in order to make the world a better place. I don't agree.
quote:
You want to compartmentalize the problem to ‘white’ markets. I don’t think this is realistic because the mere existence of white markets virtually guarantees a black counterpart. Say prostitution becomes legal worldwide tomorrow and many white operations open their doors. There would still be many unregulated and dangerous operations.
You totally misunderstood what I said, and the nature of your misunderstanding is telling indeed.
First of all I don't consider prostitution a problem, and so I am not talking about compartmentalizing "the problem" to white markets.
Grey and black markets in general, and so prostitution within such markets, suffer from "the problems" associated with those markets. Thus I am saying if you want to lower the problematic stats which have been quoted, which are the result of having relegated prostitution to black and grey markets, you can best do so by undermining those blackmarkets.
Second of all a black market does not start once you legitimize trade in something (start a white market). By reason of definition, only the removal of white markets can create a black market. Empowering a white market will undercut the blackmarket counterpart. That is just economic fact. I would admit that a blackmarket will never go away just because a white market exists, but it can be crippled. Most certainly you only create and empower a blackmarket when you make any trade illegal.
quote:
Trafficking in humans supposedly represents the world's 3rd largest criminal activity (after drugs and weapons.) The miscellaneous agencies aren’t suppressing these operations now, what makes you think they can handle the regulation involved?
I think that's my point. They cannot stop drugs and they cannot stop weapons and they will never stop the slave trade. But they can cripple the market, instead of fueling it (like they have with drugs and weapons)
quote:
Would most patrons choose the $250.regulated shop over the $50.unregulated shop that is likely around the corner?
If it meant there was no chance you'd be busted, the provider was less likely to have disease or drug problems, and less likely to have criminal elements ready to rob you... my guess is the majority would. Not that all would, a blackmarket will always exist, but most would.
The redlight district in the Netherlands shoots your theoretical question down. Why dabble in theory when you have real life examples?
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Advocating prostitution encourages all of the negative characteristics of the sex industry (child/slave) because it encourages the idea of buying a body for personal use, even if you personally only think of it as entertainment.
It does not necessarily encourage that idea and so it should not encourage those negative characteristics.
While a person with such an idea (buying bodies) will not have their mind changed by being able to hire someone for sex legally, for certain relegating all those he hires for sex into the black market and so virtual (if not actual) slavery will only promote his delusions.
As a bonus for sex workers, in the white market a provider could easily choose not to provide service to a client that started getting attitude like they just bought her. And in a white market, prostitutes can band together as a community to promote the idea that they are workers providing a service, not slaves for sex.
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No, but it deters the practice in some small degree.
Using what statistics? Prostitution has been around forever. Illegality has merely changed its nature for the worse.
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Prostitution is a key factor in the spread of HIV,
Okay, I'm calling bullshit on this claim. How you can say this with a straight font I have no idea. Please find me one stat to support this. What you might be surprised to find when you do look (or when you look at the references I listed) is that it is not a significant factor at all... not even close. Not to say it can't be spread this way, just that it isn't a significant factor, much less a key factor. Hell, I was surprised to find out how insignificant it is in the US grey/black market. Rumors abound on this topic, but the facts are not there.
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the fear of contracting this has the clients fueling a younger and younger market.
Stats please? Anything? I found nothing to support this claim. I don't mind people not listing refs if they are easy enough to find, but when they are hard to find please give some sort of support.
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The practitioners and clients need much more education before you could allow legality, I suppose you expect that regulation would counter this.
All clients and providers would have to always engage in protected sex. Do you think this is a reasonable expectation for an industry that thrives on ‘having it your way’?
Once again you haven't been to the redlight district of Amsterdam. It doesn't take that much to teach a person how to use a condom properly... you know, just like they teach workers at Burger King to wrap your whopper.
And anyway, in a white market the provider always has "the right to refuse service." Although in this case no shirt and no shoes is generally expected.
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Do you think an open market would pay the desperate women who are already engaged any more than it does now?
I don't know how the market would fluctuate. But, guaranteed a white market worker would have less stolen from pimps, slave owners, and police and so make more than blackmarket workers do now.
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It seems more symbolic of pacification, not conscious trade; I’ll have to read more on it.
What is conscious trade besides symbolic pacification? Besides, such a definition is irrelevant. The Bonobo article was just supposed to point to an inate tendency to engage in such "trading" (in the loose sense). It would be a precursor to later (more developed, more conscious) activity.
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I’ve yet to read through all of your links and I do intend to, but I think you do have an unrealistic outlook.
How can you say you haven't read the articles and then say I'm the one with an unrealistic outlook? I've not only read the articles, I've read counter articles, and I have direct experience of the white and grey markets.
Once you read those articles, you may find that most of those who have done the research or have direct experience come to this same unrealistic outlook. I stand in good company.
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To cripple the bad markets you would have to offer some alternative to the desperate women involved. These markets are not full of women that choose prostitution as a career. Poverty stricken areas and areas involved in conflict create even more sexual violence, more displaced people, more orphans and more prostitutes. You would need a very far-reaching economic plan to really eliminate the shady markets.
That is the first thing you said that makes any real sense. I totally agree with you. However combatting prostitution has nothing to do with solving economic problems. You have the cart before the horse on that one.
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And I’m saying that prostitution encourages the disregard for those boundaries. It encourages dehumanization and sexual exploitation.
So what you are saying is that you refuse to allow others to define their boundaries different than your own. Because according to you allowing people to define those boundaries less strictly encourages others to ignore other people's boundaries altogether.
That is not only incorrect logically, it is absurd in that you advocate violating people's personal boundaries (through arrest) in order to prevent the possible infringement of those boundaries by someone else.
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I respect your boundaries as you respect mine and try to be objective about the majority mentality.
So in Holland, where the majority is okay with prostitution, you would be fine with it.
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You seem to think that legalization will open the minds of the masses. I think it is somewhat of a responsibility to protect human dignity, I never really thought of it as a case of majority rule.
I don't believe it will open people's minds nor is this the reason I advocate its legalization. I do wish people would become more openminded, but I think the argument of protecting human dignity itself requires us to cripple black markets and empower personal freedom.
I might note that you have just prized your definition of dignity over other people's definition of dignity.
Personally I find women allowing themselves to be hired for sexual entertainment, more dignified than women (or men) being tossing into jail (especially if your paradigm were correct, and they are simply trying to escape crushing poverty).
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Are most prostitutes in it for the freedom first or simply in it for the money?
Probably for the money and the financial freedom they hope that money will give them. For those in the black market these hopes are pipe dreams.
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Statements about job satisfaction are laughable when you step outside of the white area.
Hey, that's my line.
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How will physical appearance effect an open market?
Not that such a thing matters one bit, but clearly you have never been to Amsterdam.
I disagree with your overall assessment. I think you need to do more serious research before coming to (or stating) a conclusion on this topic. At least read my refs, before critiquing me.
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Ruth, posted 02-21-2003 3:29 PM Ruth has not replied

  
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