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Author Topic:   castor oil packs-real treatment or quackery?
Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 46 of 97 (372855)
12-29-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
12-29-2006 9:07 AM


Re: Lymphocytes
quote:
But the lymphocyte B cells do produce antibodies and the T cells help the B cells.
The excerpt stated that there was a concomitant (happening together) increase in the number of total lymphocytes.
T helper lymphocytes can specialise as either Th1 or Th2 depending on how they were initially activated. Each type expresses a different complement of surface receptors and cytokines. It is Th2 lymphocytes which can stimulate B lymphocytes (Th1 lymphocytes activate macrophages).
In this study, it is likely that B lymphocytes would be stimulated, as CD2 would result in Th2 differentiation. My issue was with the last line in your quote, which to me at least, gave the impression that it was the "T-11" lymphocytes which produce the antibodies. T lymphocytes protect the body by causing infected cells to commit suicide (apoptosis). I do agree that this is likely the authors misunderstanding and not in the original study.
quote:
Since the castor oil packs are used when there is something wrong with the body, there doesn't seem to be a need for a permanent rise in the lymphocytes. Pack application varies from daily to weekly.
Any idea how the liver funtions when there is a rise in lymphocytes or if any other part of the body is affected?
The point I was trying to make, albeit not very well, was that the immune system was reacting to the castor oils irritation of the skin, resulting in the inflammatory immune response. A permanent rise in lymphocytes is not necessary, since this increase simply represents a population of identical clones. As I said, the lymphocytes will decrease after the cause of the irritation, in this case the castor oil, is removed and any remaining in the skin is neutralised. But if the castor oil was making a positive effect elsewhere in the body, this increase in lymphocytes should persist.
Can't find anything so far on an increase in lymphocytes directly affecting liver function or any other part of the body, aside from the damaging effects on tissues by cytokines. However, the immune response would be localised to the dermis directly beneath the castor oil pad, since this is the site of inflammation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 12-29-2006 9:07 AM purpledawn has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 47 of 97 (372874)
12-29-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
12-29-2006 9:07 AM


Re: gallstones
Hi, PD, your gallstones don`t seem to be attracting much attention, so I`ll focus there. Instead of waiting 3-4 years, how about a couple of weeks/months? A good friend of mine was given a naturopathic cure for them which, being a skeptic, I ridiculed. I was punished by a weekly visit from him toting a pickle bottle containing various sizes of stones--the latest he had passed. This went on for a few weeks until they tapered off. He shows no ill-effects from the treatment two years later. He`s on the road at present, but if you are interested, I`ll find out details.

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 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 12-29-2006 9:07 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by purpledawn, posted 12-30-2006 11:27 AM Nighttrain has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 97 (372955)
12-30-2006 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Coragyps
12-29-2006 9:09 PM


Re: Lymphocytes
It would be an interesting study. Who can we get to finance it?
Would you also need to compare with the reaction to just a heting pad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Coragyps, posted 12-29-2006 9:09 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 49 of 97 (372959)
12-30-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by purpledawn
12-30-2006 8:42 AM


Re: Lymphocytes
Oh, yeah - definitely a heat-only option, too.
The US government has an alternative-medicine agency - the one that just shot down black cohosh as a hot-flash remedy. Maybe they'd help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 12-30-2006 8:42 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 50 of 97 (372984)
12-30-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Nighttrain
12-29-2006 10:30 PM


Re: gallstones
I investigated the gallbladder flushes, but didn't get a warn and fuzzy feeling about trying them. Too many doubts. That's when I sought out a naturopathic doctor who didn't recommend the flush since I have multiple gallstones. The possibility of them jamming in the opening is the risk.
Knowing what I have passed already during a gallstone attack and the pain associated, and that the common bile duct diameter runs between 4-8mm; I don't see how those "large" stones could have passed through the bile duct safely.
I would want to know the size of the largest gallstone before I tried such a flush. The MDs didn't give me a measurement. So I'm going for the slow route. I'm not in a rush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Nighttrain, posted 12-29-2006 10:30 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 51 of 97 (373501)
01-01-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by purpledawn
12-27-2006 7:27 AM


Re: Transdermal Absorption
Studies in humans indicated that the percentage absorption of castor oil is inversely proportional to the dose given. A dose of 4g of castor oil was almost completely absorbed; whereas, 64% of a dose of 50g appeared in the faeces within 24 hours, and almost 90% of 60g dose was excreted in the faeces. Doses of 10g or more of castor oil produced either mild laxation of purgation (Watson et al., 1963).
I was thinking back to this which you posted. The fact that the percentage absored across the gut mucosa decreased as the dose increased suggested that there was some limiting factor. It seems that, like other fatty acids, castor oil must be emulsified in bile salts before it can be absorbed across the mucosa. The epidermis, unlike the gut mucosa, is not adapted to absorption, and obviosly does not have bile salts, so it is unlikely that castor oil would be able to significantly penetrate this barrier.
Of course your other study from the Meridian Institute does state that a high level of epoxydicarboxylic acid was excreted in the urine following oral administration but not in castor oil packs. Since epoxydicarboxylic acid is a the byproduct of castor oil metabolism, this indicates that castor oil is not entering the body transdermally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by purpledawn, posted 12-27-2006 7:27 AM purpledawn has replied

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 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 01-01-2007 8:42 PM Meddle has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 52 of 97 (373516)
01-01-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Meddle
01-01-2007 7:37 PM


Re: Transdermal Absorption
quote:
Since epoxydicarboxylic acid is a the byproduct of castor oil metabolism, this indicates that castor oil is not entering the body transdermally.
Not necessarily, isn't it possible that it is metabolized differently since it doesn't pass through the stomach?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Coragyps, posted 01-01-2007 9:19 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 54 by nator, posted 01-01-2007 10:32 PM purpledawn has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 53 of 97 (373526)
01-01-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by purpledawn
01-01-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Transdermal Absorption
Not necessarily, isn't it possible that it is metabolized differently since it doesn't pass through the stomach?
Sounds exceedingly unlikely to me - the epoxydicarboxylic acid would most certainly be an inside-a-cell product, not an inside-the-stomach or -gut. And we still have no data to show that, and some of your own references to deny that whole castor oil can even get through skin at all. It dang sure isn't going to break down significantly in a warmish pack sitting on a tummy somewhere. Don't force me into buying a bottle of the stuff and running the experiment - I spend too much work time on this forum already!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 01-01-2007 8:42 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 8:19 AM Coragyps has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 54 of 97 (373554)
01-01-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by purpledawn
01-01-2007 8:42 PM


observation
PD, you do realize that it appears to me and others in this thread that you are working very, very hard to find support for your a priori assumption that castor oil packs do whatever it is that you think they do, don't you?
IOW, you have something very similar to a Creationist mindset when it comes to your "naturopathic" treatments.
You appear to be very inclined to believe in them on faith.
You've put a lot of effort into researching and thinking up possible ways that the packs might work, yet you have neglected to put any effort at all into researching or considering if they work in the first place.
THAT is the assumption that you should be confronting.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 01-01-2007 8:42 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 8:13 AM nator has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 55 of 97 (373635)
01-02-2007 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by nator
01-01-2007 10:32 PM


Re: observation
quote:
PD, you do realize that it appears to me and others in this thread that you are working very, very hard to find support for your a priori assumption that castor oil packs do whatever it is that you think they do, don't you?
It is a little difficult to have a discussion if someone doesn't present possibilities from the other side.
Actually I thought it was interesting to see if there was a possibility that the oil made it through the skin by looking at other research. If it effects lymphocytes, then it is doing something.
If any part of it makes it through the skin or stimulates the immune system, how does that aid the gallbladder, liver, or cleanse xenoestrogens? As a consumer, I'm rather limited on means of research. Some things are just trial and error.
quote:
You appear to be very inclined to believe in them on faith.
It has nothing to do with "faith" as you put it. I trust my ND just as you trust your MD. Do you research everything your MD ever tells you to do or do you just research the serious stuff? This is one of those treatments that is low risk. If it does nothing, no harm done. If nothing else, it's a good excuse for me to relax for an hour.
quote:
You've put a lot of effort into researching and thinking up possible ways that the packs might work, yet you have neglected to put any effort at all into researching or considering if they work in the first place.
I didn't think I was supposed to cover both sides of the discussion.
Dr. McGarey has documented the cases he used the packs for with positive results.
Some doctors have found that only cold pressed castor oil is effective as an immune stimulant. Apparently the high temperatures used by some manufacturers destroys the immune stimulating properties of the castor oil. The CD4 count was up in those using cold pressed castor oil, but not in those who used castor oil that was not cold pressed.
But if my attempts to learn are boring you, then fine you win, it's quackery. End of discussion.
Time to go relax for an hour.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by nator, posted 01-01-2007 10:32 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by nator, posted 01-02-2007 9:01 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 97 (373637)
01-02-2007 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Coragyps
01-01-2007 9:19 PM


Epoxydicarboxylic Acid
Is epoxydicarboxylic acid a fatty acid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Coragyps, posted 01-01-2007 9:19 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Coragyps, posted 01-02-2007 9:53 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 57 of 97 (373643)
01-02-2007 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by purpledawn
01-02-2007 8:13 AM


Re: observation
quote:
It has nothing to do with "faith" as you put it. I trust my ND just as you trust your MD. Do you research everything your MD ever tells you to do or do you just research the serious stuff?
If my MD prescribed a course of action that set off my bullshit detector the way that these castor oil packs do, then yes, I would research it even if it was for something "minor". It would make me question if I should continue to allow this particular MD to provide me care.
You see, MD's can self-delude and become, in full or in part, quacks, although there are many professional systems in place for preventing this from happening, and if it does happen, disallowing the quack MD's to continue to practice medicine.
However, there is little to no such quackery-prevention systems regarding ND's, and little to nothing people can do to prevent ND's who are quacks from practicing medicine.
So, it isn't just my MD that I trust when I accept their diagnosis and treatment. When I accept and trust their professional opinion and reccommendations, I understand that they are backed by years and years of careful, professional research done under strict scientific standards of investigation.
If someone challenged the validity of something my MD told me to do, the first thing I would do is produce the research that shows that what they told me to do works.
quote:
This is one of those treatments that is low risk. If it does nothing, no harm done. If nothing else, it's a good excuse for me to relax for an hour.
But PD, if it isn't working, doesn't that call into question your ND, and the trust you place in them to have knowledge of reliable, effective treatments? Does your ND think that they work? If so, why does he or she think that? Based upon what evidence? If they don't know if they work or not, why on earth did they prescribe them as a treatment?
If the ND is willing to believe that they work without any real reason to believe that they do, and with many reasons to doubt them (if one understands something about human physiology as we've learned in this thread), then doesn't that call into question the ND's competency to practive medicine? Perhaps thay just don't know enough to be playing doctor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 8:13 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 9:23 AM nator has replied
 Message 70 by johnfolton, posted 01-02-2007 9:11 PM nator has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 97 (373649)
01-02-2007 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by nator
01-02-2007 9:01 AM


Re: observation
This thread is not about my personal choices, but whether castor oil packs are a real treatment or quackery.
So far you haven't really added anything to the discussion.
Please address the issue, not my personal choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by nator, posted 01-02-2007 9:01 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by nator, posted 01-02-2007 9:42 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 97 (373652)
01-02-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by purpledawn
01-02-2007 9:23 AM


Re: observation
If you didn't want to talk about "personal choices", then why did you ask about mine?
AbE: In addition, it is a bit rich for you to accuse me of not adding anything to the discussion, since you haven't even attempted to address the very relevant questions about the oil packs in the OP.
I mean, have you asked your ND any of them?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 9:23 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 4:50 PM nator has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 60 of 97 (373654)
01-02-2007 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by purpledawn
01-02-2007 8:19 AM


Re: Epoxydicarboxylic Acid
An epoxydicarboxylic acid would be a reaction product of a fatty acid with oxygen - an early step in its biological breakdown to carbon dioxide, water, and energy. Apparently enough is excreted to use them as a tracer of fatty acid metabolism. I'll have to dig out my biochem text to tell you any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 8:19 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2007 11:04 AM Coragyps has replied

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