castor oil packs-real treatment or quackery?

It appears to me that some people such as schrafinator derive great comfort for meticulous research and traditional protocols of established medicine, whereas others such as myself and purpledawn are willing to trust folk remedies when we see that they have passed the guinea pig test on other humans and that they have some basis for success.I say to each his own...if I screw up my health by listening to "quacks" or to people who didn't *shudder* pass the established bar of competency
then thats my own problem.Schrafinator, it seems that you want to start a crusade to make sure that people show proper respect to the system of educated research and pay proper homage to Doctors who have earned their stripes and to products that are officially condoned.I say that we should have the freedom to eat worms if we really want to and if it gives us even the comfort of a placebo.

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It appears to me that some people such as schrafinator derive great comfort for meticulous research and traditional protocols of established medicine, whereas others such as myself and purpledawn are willing to trust folk remedies when we see that they have passed the guinea pig test on other humans and that they have some basis for success.

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But that's just it, phat.Many, many of these remedies haven't passed any "guinea pig" test, nor do they have any basis to consider them "successful".How are you defining "success", anyway?

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Schrafinator, it seems that you want to start a crusade to make sure that people show proper respect to the system of educated research and pay proper homage to Doctors who have earned their stripes and to products that are officially condoned.

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My "crusade", if I have one, is to expose pseudoscience, including medical quackery, when I encounter it.

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I say that we should have the freedom to eat worms if we really want to and if it gives us even the comfort of a placebo.

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I also think you should have that right.What people do not have the right to do, however, is to profit from the sale of or the belief among the public that these bogus remedies really work.The moment someone makes money from practicing "naturopathic" medicine, or from selling dubious, quack cures, they are fair game for the strictest critical examination and regulation, don't you think?

Would the presence of this acid, or any of the other fatty acids in castor oil, affect the pH balance of the urine if present?I realize it isn't as precise as a lab can do, but if it would that is a test I can do at home to see if there is a difference. I'm not sure what other types of urine analysis sticks are available over the counter.Any possibilities there?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

So are you suggesting that there is no legitimacy to naturapaths?

I wouldn't think so, PD. Fatty acids are by their nature oil soluble and aren't going to show up in urine at all (with healthy non-leaking kidneys, at least). And the amounts we're contemplating here - the tiny bit that might get through the skin, and the tiny bit of its metabolites that end up in urine, are surely going to be dwarfed by the bicarbonate, uric acid, and all that whatnot that normally regulate urine pH anyway.A swimming pool pH kit would be perfectly OK for Pee pH - except I don't know of anything useful that such a measurement would tell you.

Just trying to think of a simple home test to see if anything get through or makes a change in the body that could be discernable to the consumer.Did you see the comment I made to Scraf a few posts earlier? Apparently one study found that cold pressed castor oil is the one to use because noncold pressed castor oil doesn't have the same effect. It doesn't cause the CD4 to rise.I haven't had a chance to look for info that mentions testing the two oils to see what one is missing or has less of than the other.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Speculation - hot pressing denatures ricin and/or other proteins present in trace amounts in the oil, and the denatured forms don't cause an immune reaction due to their lack of solubility or reactivity.

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If you didn't want to talk about "personal choices", then why did you ask about mine?

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I asked in Message 55 if you researched everything your MD ever tells you to do or do you just research the serious stuff? It was a rhetorical question to get you to realize that I do not have a creationist mindset concerning naturopathic treatments and I am not inclined to believe in them "on faith". You have a certain level of trust in your MD and I have a certain level of trust in my MD, ND, Chiropractor, Sports Therapist, or Massage Therapist etc. I have a different way of approaching my health than you do so different things will trigger the BS meter. The implication that I blindly follow anything "natural" is getting annoying and is frankly unwarranted.A reminder that when you wanted to start this thread I said: Not sure what I could add if you want hard facts. I only have my experience and what I've read (if I can find the info again.) in books. I would join in, but I don't know that I can prove anything to your safisfaction.As for Message 1. Remember that chat is different than debate.

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In a recent chat session about naturopathy, purpledawn mentioned that her naturopath is treating her assumed elevated estrogen levels by treating her liver, by having her use castor oil packs.

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In Message 7, I provided the book references that contained the estrogen information.In Message 17 I told Coragyps that I don't have the answers, I just gave Schraf what I've found in books to help explain what the packs supposedly do.

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Many questions came to my mind immediately, and I am wondering if PD has asked them of her Naturopath.
The questions I would have if a naturopath told me to do that would be: How do you know I have estrogen above normal levels without taking a blood test?

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In Message 25, I explained that my ND did not diagnose excess estrogen. My GYN diagnosed unopposed estrogen (more estrogen than progesterine) several years ago. No she didn't do any tests, she prescribed progestorine based on my explanation of my symptoms, records I kept on my menstrual cycle and a physical exam.I also stated: The use of castor oil packs to deal with excess estrogen from xenoestrogens was something I gleaned a few years ago from a few books on natural hormone health which were written by NDs. See Message 7. I haven't really made use of it for that reason.And I stated: My own use of the castor oil packs are related to gallstones and liver support.

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Is there any proof that castor oil is absorbed through the outer layer of skin to the underlying tissues?

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Not that you would accept apparently. I quoted the work done by Dr. McGarey in Message 34 and have been trying to discern the possibilities through discussion.

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If so, how does the castor oil get directly to the liver without doing anything else to any other tissues?

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Again that is what we are trying to discern in the discussion.

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How does the castor oil know to leave the healthy amount of estrogen in my ovaries and take only the exess in my liver?

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In Message 38 I asked: How does the aspirin know whether it is dealing with a headache or arthritis, pain or inflamation? It's the same thing. Sometimes things just work and no one knows exactly why.

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If we haven't done any urine or blood tests to determine what my estrogen levels were before starting the castor oil packs, during use, and after stopping them, how can we know if my hormone levels were changing?

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It would be determine the same way my MD did as I mentioned in Message 25. Symptoms, records, lifestyle, nutrition, and experience. With unopposed estrogen the period stops. If things get back to normal the period starts again, which is what happened with the medication I was taking. That is the signal that it is working.

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I mean, have you asked your ND any of them?

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No, they aren't my questions and I'm not going to ask her unreasonable questions for a debate board, especially since I don't feel that you would accept anything she said.I have addressed the OP to the best of my ability.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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So are you suggesting that there is no legitimacy to naturapaths?

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Of course they can be legitimate, but only in direct proportion to the extent that they reject quackery and accept scientific methodology.

The quacks are people that are ignorant of homeopathic, naturalpathic and holistic medicines. They believe the propoganda of the big drug companies. The drug companies knowing vitamens are affecting their profits which is of course why they banned vitamen b17. The god of this world operates by terrorism and fear like yours of cyanide, so strip all the foods of what they believe will prevent cancer. If it doesn't hurt one why strip all the foods normally eaten of all nutrition unless it affects profit. Whole grain breads prevent heart disease while white bread promotes heart disease. Surely the stripping the foods of nutrition will be no different in restricting natural medicines by taking them from the shelf only available by prescription where doctors have to abide by Codex regulations that only are designed to profit the drug companies and penalize the vitamen companies.If you check in respect to the drug companies they were the only ones that were exempt in respect to free trade, which is why it is illegal to get cheaper drugs from Canada.Soon you may not beable to get nutritional supplements if you continue to listen to the drug companies terrorists tactics.The true problem is not the supplements but the side effect of the drugs the drug companies. They are loosing the battle to the natural vitamens so the Drug companies are going to side step the will of the people to force vitamens from the shelf.Its simply the god of this world to make vitamens inaccessible to the common man. You should be outraged not at the vitamen companies but the drug companies.If you believe in Libbys Vitamen C study proving is good for ones health, too bad vitamen C will no longer be available. If you want vitamen C, D etc... it may soon only be available by prescription at a high price for a questionably low dose. Can one imagine trying to get a doctor to give you a high supply of vitamen C when they have to answer to the FDA because of their marriage to the drug companies profits.------------------------------------------Nutraceuticals are god-given nutrients that are readily available for our good health, but drug companies want to make them illegal to buy and use ? unless they can sell them to increase their bank accounts.Another word you need to know is CODEX (the European Food Supplements Directive). The purpose of Codex is similar to Nutraceuticals. The government wants to control supplements so that we are made totally dependent on doctors, drug companies and the government.http://supplements.yourwebinfo.net/56443.phpEdited by Charley, : No reason given.

With friends like Charley and Buzsaw, who needs debate opponents, eh?Doesn't it give you just a little pause to know that you are arguing on the same side as the wacko and the paranoid?

It same old tactic when have nothing of substance attack the the messenger. You really should stop supporting the drug companies covert media attack on supplemental holistic medicine. If you don't understand homeopathy, holistic, natural path medicines then you simply have nothing of substance. Its like your beating a dead horse. You should be outraged at how they have been exempted from free trade laws and the high cost of medicines. If the vitamens are only to be bought by prescription it make the drug companies monopoly only that much stronger.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

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You should be outraged at how they have been exempted from free trade laws and the high cost of medicines.

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I am.Why did you assume I wasn't?OTOH, don't you think all prescription drugs are dangerous or bad for you? Why do you care how expensive they are if you avoid them anyway?

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If the vitamens are only to be bought by prescription it make the drug companies monopoly only that much stronger.

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It is 100% false that vitamins have ever been considered to be restricted in any way.

Nutraceuticals are god-given nutrients that are readily available for our good health, but drug companies want to make them illegal to buy and use ? unless they can sell them to increase their bank accounts.Another word you need to know is CODEX (the European Food Supplements Directive). The purpose of Codex is similar to Nutraceuticals. The government wants to control supplements so that we are made totally dependent on doctors, drug companies and the government.http://supplements.yourwebinfo.net/56443.php While I believe holistic medicine is about treating the root cause of a disease sometime a disease requires regular medicine. Like diabetes may require insulin but holistic medicine might lower or eliminate the need for insulin.If regular medicine would all intigrate with holistic medicine it would actually be the best of both worlds. Instead they will likely ban supplements but by prescription, thats what planned. Get with the program, etc... Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

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Doesn't it give you just a little pause to know that you are arguing on the same side as the wacko and the paranoid?

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Your posts are the ones setting the tone for the "wacko and paranoid" which seems to be more of what you want. Unfortunately it is off topic and hopefully no one will continue that line of discussion, but get back to castor oil packs.

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Of course they can be legitimate, but only in direct proportion to the extent that they reject quackery and accept scientific methodology.

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Just so we're all on the same page, what is scientific methodology from your perspective?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz