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Author Topic:   Elephant paint...
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 45 (498584)
02-11-2009 11:40 PM



Replies to this message:
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 Message 3 by Taz, posted 02-12-2009 1:03 AM riVeRraT has replied
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 2 of 45 (498589)
02-12-2009 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
02-11-2009 11:40 PM


Me too!

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 45 (498591)
02-12-2009 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
02-11-2009 11:40 PM


(1) Animal abuse!!!
(2) You're still alive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 02-11-2009 11:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by riVeRraT, posted 02-12-2009 6:46 AM Taz has replied

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 4 of 45 (498607)
02-12-2009 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
02-11-2009 11:40 PM


I saw this a while back. I wondered whether it was a genuine creation or if the picture was a trained act, one that is basically repeated verbatim. The reason is, I saw elephants painting a long time ago and the pictures looked something more like abstract art. But maybe that was a recording of the very first exposure of the elephant to the medium? Anyways I would like to know the answer to this.
On a somewhat similar topic I was fascinated with a piece I saw on television where Dolphins were taught sign language. They were taught a vocabulary of nouns and verbs. Then random three word sentences were given them and they followed it without a problem. It has gotten better.
excerpts:
They developed a sign language to communicate with the dolphins, and the results were remarkable. Not only do the dolphins understand the meaning of individual words, they also understand the significance of word order in a sentence. (One of their star dolphins, Akeakamai, has learned a vocabulary of more than 60 words and can understand more than 2,000 sentences.) Particularly impressive is the dolphins' relaxed attitude when new sentences are introduced. For example, the dolphins generally responded correctly to "touch the frisbee with your tail and then jump over it". This has the characteristics of true understanding, not rigid training.
Why dolphins are deep thinkers | Animal behaviour | The Guardian
Dr. Lilly was attempting to make Dolphin #8 whistle a burst of a given pitch, duration and intensity in order to obtain a reward. The dolphin quickly caught on. Every time he whistled his blowhole would move and a whistle would be emitted. Then Dr. Lilly noticed that the dolphin had added a new rule to the game. He was raising the pitch of each subsequent whistle. Suddenly, the blowhole twitched, but no sound. He had passed our hearing range. No sound-- no reward. Dolphin #8 emitted two more supersonic twitches and the third was hearable. From that time on he did not go out of Dr. Lilly's acoustic range. The Dolphin had determined what his hearing range was and stayed within it.
In 1962 Dr. Dreher and Dr. Evans were aboard the research vessel Sea Quest, 300 miles south of San Diego, studying gray whales. They had strung a number of vertical aluminum poles and microphones inside Scammon's Lagoon, erecting a type of barrier. A short time later five Pacific Bottle-nosed dolphins were spotted about 500 yards from the barrier. After a few minutes of what was labeled conversation, a scout was sent from the group. Microphones picked up his sonar soundings as he closely surveyed the poles. When he returned to the pod an explosion of whistles, chirps and Bronx cheer-like noises were recorded via microphones. After several minutes of conversation the dolphins proceeded through the barrier and into the bay.
A similar occurrence was noted when, in 1962, several Lockheed Aircraft Corporation scientists erected a similar barrier across a channel, this time with stronger microphones. As the dolphins approached clicking noises were heard -- possibly sonar soundings. They gathered into a group in nearby shallow water about 400 feet from the barrier. During this time lots of clicks and squeaky-door sounds were recorded. A scout left the group and examined the barrier. When the dolphin returned he was greeted in the same manner as before. After about four minutes of conversation another scout was sent out. Upon his return he too was greeted with the explosion of whistles. After about two and a half minutes the dolphins merrily clicked through the barrier. Returning into the bay that afternoon, and the next morning leaving the bay, the pod did not send a scout when they came to the barrier.....nor did they even slow down.
http://www.littletownmart.com/dolphins/

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 5 of 45 (498610)
02-12-2009 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
02-12-2009 1:03 AM


Animal abuse? j/k
I was actually wondering as I was watching that, if the elephant was enjoying it. Does the elephant appreciate the applause? Does the elephant feel joy looking at his creation?
Yes I am alive, just busy with life and such. Got tired of arguing with your pathetic ass..... Since you never got me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 02-12-2009 1:03 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 02-12-2009 6:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 45 (498611)
02-12-2009 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by riVeRraT
02-12-2009 6:46 AM


See, personally the elephant couldn't care less about the applause. But she does care about the painting. Painting comes with rewards like sugarcanes and peanuts.
My philosophy on the matter. Training animal to do incredible things is ok as long as (1) the animal doesn't have to suffer pain or anguish, (2) some person doesn't have to suffer pain or anguish, and/or (3) some person doesn't have some kind of sado-masochistic enjoyment out of the act.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by riVeRraT, posted 02-12-2009 6:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by riVeRraT, posted 02-12-2009 3:51 PM Taz has replied

  
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 7 of 45 (498616)
02-12-2009 7:34 AM


Looks absolutely amazing to me, even if it is learned behaviour. The amount of coordination, the fact that he re-traces some lines. He's (she?) GOTTA know what he's doing to a high degree.

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 8 of 45 (498627)
02-12-2009 9:00 AM


Like Shalamabobbi, the last time I saw footage of an elephant painting, it was totally abstract. It was basically just making coloured marks on a canvass. It was clearly enjoying itself and clearly understood what it was doing, but it was nothing compared to this.
The idea of an elephant painting an elephant isn't totally unthinkable since elephants have been proven to have theory of mind. I'm still suspicious though.
The thing that makes me most suspicious is that the painting has perspective. I find it very hard to believe that an elephant can create perspective on its lonesome. I call shenanigans! I'm just clueless as to what those shenanigans might be...
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Replies to this message:
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 Message 12 by Taz, posted 02-17-2009 3:19 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 9 of 45 (498631)
02-12-2009 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Granny Magda
02-12-2009 9:00 AM


quote:
The thing that makes me most suspicious is that the painting has perspective. I find it very hard to believe that an elephant can create perspective on its lonesome. I call shenanigans! I'm just clueless as to what those shenanigans might be...
It could have been taught perspective by copying humans, but I think the interesting question was why it copied the techniques. Was it just because zookeepers would reward the elephant that successfully copied their paintings, or did the elephant understand that the resulting picture was better?

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 10 of 45 (498649)
02-12-2009 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
02-12-2009 6:51 AM


quote:
See, personally the elephant couldn't care less about the applause. But she does care about the painting. Painting comes with rewards like sugarcanes and peanuts.
  —"taz"
Well then you are implying that human-animal relationships are just not there. When my parrot copies me, I feel like there is a relationship thing happening. I believe the parrot feels the same thing, because he/she does it without reward.
I think it is totally within reason to believe that animals relate with humans on many different, and deep levels.
Check this out:
If an animal is capable of receiving help from a human, then why not other forms of relationship?
quote:
My philosophy on the matter. Training animal to do incredible things is ok as long as (1) the animal doesn't have to suffer pain or anguish, (2) some person doesn't have to suffer pain or anguish, and/or (3) some person doesn't have some kind of sado-masochistic enjoyment out of the act.
  —"taz"
With your logic, we would have no way of distinguishing those things. How do we know if the elephant enjoys painting or not. Maybe the elephant is just thinking--oh crap, I have to to this shit again!! It's so hard to hold this dam brush, my trunk is shaking!!. All I want to do is run wild with my friends and take a bath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 02-12-2009 6:51 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 02-17-2009 3:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 45 (499229)
02-17-2009 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by riVeRraT
02-12-2009 3:51 PM


riverrat writes:
Well then you are implying that human-animal relationships are just not there.
Depends on what kind of relationships you are talking about. We got 3 dogs and we love them very much. They all would try to jump and sit on my wife's laps when we're sitting down because my wife tends to give them treats. On the other hand, they'd ignore her completely and get all jumpy around me whenever they see me put on my jacket and shoes/boots because I'm the one that usually takes them out for a walk. As far as I know, any emotional relationship that exists between the four-legged and the two-legged in our place is strictly one sided.
When my parrot copies me, I feel like there is a relationship thing happening.
Bingo!
I believe the parrot feels the same thing, because he/she does it without reward.
Well, my dogs jump on us and take turns getting petted most of the time now without getting rewards. It's called learned behavior.
I think it is totally within reason to believe that animals relate with humans on many different, and deep levels.
If it makes you feel good to believe that, then have fun believing that.
If an animal is capable of receiving help from a human, then why not other forms of relationship?
Haha. You're lumping all them animals together as if they're all the same.
With your logic, we would have no way of distinguishing those things.
I admit that the first one is hard to tell. I can't give you set criteria when an animal is suffering. I know it when I see it, though, which refers me to the other two.
How do we know if the elephant enjoys painting or not. Maybe the elephant is just thinking--oh crap, I have to to this shit again!! It's so hard to hold this dam brush, my trunk is shaking!!. All I want to do is run wild with my friends and take a bath.
As far as we know, that's may as well what the elephant was thinking when she painted that picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by riVeRraT, posted 02-12-2009 3:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2009 6:40 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 45 (499230)
02-17-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Granny Magda
02-12-2009 9:00 AM


Granny writes:
The idea of an elephant painting an elephant isn't totally unthinkable since elephants have been proven to have theory of mind. I'm still suspicious though.
I read an article a few months ago on this very subject. So far, researchers have been able to prove that 3 species beside humans could recognize themselves in the mirror: dolphins, chimps, and elephants.
The thing... is that the painting has perspective. I... believe that an elephant can create perspective on its lonesome....I'm just clueless...
I'd like to see some kind of scientific evidence suggesting the elephant can create perspective on its lonesome like you claimed it to be. You're clueless most of the time aren't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Granny Magda, posted 02-12-2009 9:00 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 13 of 45 (499234)
02-17-2009 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
02-17-2009 3:19 PM


I read an article a few months ago on this very subject. So far, researchers have been able to prove that 3 species beside humans could recognize themselves in the mirror: dolphins, chimps, and elephants.
Not only chimpanzees, but all species of great apes, as well as at least two species of dolphin and even magpies. From the abstract from the magpie study:
quote:
We investigated mirror-induced behavior in the magpie, a songbird species from the crow family. As
in apes, some individuals behaved in front of the mirror as if they were testing behavioral contingencies. When
provided with a mark, magpies showed spontaneous mark-directed behavior. Our findings provide the first evidence
of mirror self-recognition in a non-mammalian species. They suggest that essential components of human selfrecognition
have evolved independently in different vertebrate classes with a separate evolutionary history.
Edited by caffeine, : changed 'apes' to 'great apes'

This message is a reply to:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 14 of 45 (499236)
02-17-2009 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
02-11-2009 11:40 PM


more interesting animal studies
I remember watching a documentary about meerkats and seeing a scene where one of them was wounded and could not keep up and was soon to die. The others stopped while one of the group sort of cuddled with the dying meerkat until death arrived, then they continued on with their journey.
I have downloaded this but haven't watched it yet. I assume it is the same documentary.
http://www.mininova.org/tor/360784
876 Mbytes
http://www.mechoportal.com/...-story-begins-dvdrip-2008.html
http://rapidshare.com/...06/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...60/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part2.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...96/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part3.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...55/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part4.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...57/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part5.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...59/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part6.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...37/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part7.rar
http://rapidshare.com/...60/YAz519_ByMechoDownload.part8.rar
Password: mechodownload
Edited by shalamabobbi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 45 (499240)
02-17-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
02-17-2009 3:12 PM


taz writes:
I admit that the first one is hard to tell. I can't give you set criteria when an animal is suffering. I know it when I see it, though, which refers me to the other two.
No you don't. You just feel like that is what's happening, what a hypocrite.
So you are saying animals do not have feelings? They have senses, why not feelings as well? don't certain animals cry when they lose a mate? don't their behaviors change with location? There are so many indicators to suggest that animals do have feelings.

This message is a reply to:
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