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Author Topic:   Your prediction about outcome of Super Tuesday
Taz
Member (Idle past 1680 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 91 of 109 (454967)
02-09-2008 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by bluescat48
02-08-2008 10:39 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
bluescat writes:

So it is not as easy for someone to look at someone and give an accurate racial-ethnic account per skepticfaith's statement


See, this is not fair the way you say it. While I agree that there is no genetic disposition to race because there is no fine line seperating the races. This doesn't mean there is no such thing as race. Saying that there is no such thing as race is like saying there is no such thing as color. After all, where does red ends and orange begins?

It is one of those things that I'd have to say I know it when I see it. Not being able to tell this girl's race has nothing to do with the fact that there is such a thing as race. It's like mixing a bunch of colors together and then say that there is no such thing as different colors because nobody could identify the various colors that got mixed together. Sure, I can't tell if that little girl is what you said she is. But I can definitely tell that she's not African just like I can tell that there's no blue in a mixture of red and black after seeing it. It's I know it when I see it kinda thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by bluescat48, posted 02-08-2008 10:39 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by fallacycop, posted 02-09-2008 3:52 PM Taz has responded
 Message 95 by nator, posted 02-09-2008 5:30 PM Taz has responded
 Message 96 by Rrhain, posted 02-09-2008 6:16 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3908 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 92 of 109 (454977)
02-09-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taz
02-09-2008 3:03 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
Taz, I think you miss the point. Off course it is easy to tell the color of a person. But does that constitute race? For instance, a black person can have african origins, but might also have australian origin. these two groups are not closely related. So we need more then color to define race.

But once we start adding other characteristics things get only more unclear. should we use average height? there are some pretty tall people in nother europe and in sub-sahaara africa too. There some short people in Africa and in Asia too. So, height does not cohoborate the tentative definition for races that was achieved with skin color. You might thinkmay be if we add even more characteristics, things we become clear. But the poin is that they don't. The only honest conclusion seems to be that there's no such thing as true race in the human population

Edited by fallacycop, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 3:03 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1680 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 93 of 109 (454992)
02-09-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by fallacycop
02-09-2008 3:52 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
fallacycop writes:

Taz, I think you miss the point. Off course it is easy to tell the color of a person. But does that constitute race? For instance, a black person can have african origins, but might also have australian origin. these two groups are not closely related. So we need more then color to define race.


Point to me where I said color is the only thing we can use to define race? Yes, in my last post I used color as an analogy. Somehow, you missed the true meaning of my analogy about trying to find the fine line between red and orange and instead thought I said color is the one true thing we could use to define race.

But once we start adding other characteristics things get only more unclear.

Which is why I said race is one of those things that I would have to say I know it when I see it. There is no fine line for me to tell the difference between some Africans and some Australians, but I can definitely tell the difference between a Caucasian and, say, an East Asian.

The only honest conclusion seems to be that there's no such thing as true race in the human population

And I have never claimed that there is such a thing as a "true race". All I'm saying is that while there is no such thing as "true race", that doesn't necessarily mean the concept of race is purely an illusion. There are no fine lines to seperate the "groups", if you will, but in a lot of instances we can definitely tell who's what. Like I said, I know it when I see it.

Added by edit.

As a preemptive strike against an imminent OT pointer, I'd like to point out that we are discussing about race, which has everything to do with this topic. The OP is talking about the race for the white house. Obviously, we are talking about the same thing :p

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 109 (454994)
02-09-2008 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Taz
02-08-2008 7:43 PM


If Hillary gets the nomination, my guess is Wesley Clark for VP.

Maybe not, though. He may just get a cabinet position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Taz, posted 02-08-2008 7:43 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 109 (454995)
02-09-2008 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taz
02-09-2008 3:03 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
quote:
just like I can tell that there's no blue in a mixture of red and black after seeing it.

But there might be blue in it, even though you can't see it.

"Red" as a color can be in the "cool" (purple) family or the "warm" (orange) family.

So, is there such a thing as a "pure" race? If not, what does race really mean?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 3:03 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Taz, posted 02-10-2008 10:08 AM nator has responded

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 260 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 96 of 109 (455009)
02-09-2008 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taz
02-09-2008 3:03 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
Taz writes:

quote:
Saying that there is no such thing as race is like saying there is no such thing as color. After all, where does red ends and orange begins?

But color is arbitrary. There is no reason why we have distinct color terms for "red" and "orange" and, in fact, there are some languages that don't make that distinction.

In English, for example, we have a separate term for "pink" to distinguish it from "red" and yet we don't have a term for the similar lightening of "blue." It doesn't mean we can't talk about it...it's just that we don't see it as a distinct color from "blue." In order to describe it, we add descriptive terms to "blue" ("baby," "sky," "pale," etc.) or start comparing it to other objects that have a distinctive hue ("turquoise," "aqua," "topaz," etc.)

"Race" is a culturally defined concept just as color is. Now, the morphological traits of the human body are a bit more discrete than color, it is the aggregate collection that we tend to define as "race" and there is no particular reason why certain traits necessarily go together. They simply happen to have collected together due to reproductive isolation among various populations.

But, I do agree with you that it is ludicrous not to notice that these traits have collected. A bit of doublethink going on, I know, but it's important to note that what we call "race" is a socially constructed distinction, not a genetic one. And by recognizing that, we hopefully understand that it's just a collection of morphology and doesn't mean anything beyond that.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2578 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 97 of 109 (455019)
02-09-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taz
02-09-2008 5:10 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
I wasn't saying race does not exist, I was pointing out the fallibility
of skepticfaith's statement that a 1 year old could tell one race from another. I used my daughter's picture due to the fact that many people have thought she was everything from pure blooded indian to a hispanic white, black & indian mix.

Edited by bluescat48, : typos


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taz, posted 02-09-2008 5:10 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1680 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 98 of 109 (455091)
02-10-2008 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by nator
02-09-2008 5:30 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
nator writes:

So, is there such a thing as a "pure" race? If not, what does race really mean?


Is there such a thing as "pure" color? If not, what does color really mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by nator, posted 02-09-2008 5:30 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 02-10-2008 10:30 AM Taz has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1680 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 99 of 109 (455093)
02-10-2008 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by bluescat48
02-09-2008 7:08 PM


Re: putting this to rest...
bluescat writes:

I wasn't saying race does not exist, I was pointing out the fallibility of skepticfaith's statement that a 1 year old could tell one race from another.


In philosophy, there is a concept called The Principle of Charity. When someone says something as idiotic as what skepticfaith said in this regard, applying the Principle of Charity makes me think that perhaps he meant something else not so idiotic but he couldn't communicate his thought well enough. In other words, I gave him the benefit of a doubt.

I could be wrong in this, but the way I see skepticfaith's statement is that he wanted to say that classifying race can't be done with genetic analysis or other such methods that are so objective. His remark of "any 1 year old coudl tell..." could also mean that he was trying to say that at least to some people race is a real thing and that at least in some cases determining the race of a person with the "I know it when I see it" litmus test is fairly easy. If this is what he wanted to say, then I agree with him. While I can't determine the race or combination of races of every person on the planet, I can certainly tell the difference between a caucasian and someone from east Asia like a Korean. Giving examples of cases where the race or combination of races is not so easy to determine via I-know-it-when-I-see-it method doesn't disprove this fact.

So, again, the suggestion by some people that race doesn't exist is rediculous. It might be a subjective thing, but it's anything but an illusion.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by bluescat48, posted 02-09-2008 7:08 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 109 (455094)
02-10-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Taz
02-10-2008 10:08 AM


Re: putting this to rest...
quote:
Is there such a thing as "pure" color?

No.

quote:
If not, what does color really mean?

Our names for colors are arbitrary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Taz, posted 02-10-2008 10:08 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Taz, posted 02-10-2008 8:34 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3912
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 101 of 109 (455129)
02-10-2008 6:05 PM


Adminnemooseus appraisal of this topic - It's a "compost heap"
I deem that this topic has long run past its useful intent and has turned into a rather "misc. debris" topic.

I'm not going to make any moderation efforts here, including closing the topic down. I, however, would suggest that anyone having a real theme of substance/significance might want to start a new topic rather than having it buried in the "compost heap".

Or something like that.

Adminnemooseus


  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1680 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 102 of 109 (455134)
02-10-2008 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
02-10-2008 10:30 AM


Re: putting this to rest...
quote:
Is there such a thing as "pure" color?

No.

If not, what does color really mean?

Our names for colors are arbitrary.



I rest my case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 02-10-2008 10:30 AM nator has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5061
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 103 of 109 (455148)
02-10-2008 10:10 PM


Quetion for Americans
I few years back Canada was running a deficit and going further into debt. It became a big issue here for all parties and we now have been running surplus budgets and paying down the debt for years. As a result our dollar has gone from the mid 60's up to around par (it peaked at 1.10) with the US dollar.

I hardly ever seem to hear anything by any of the candidates about the huge deficit that is being run by the US govt., let alone the mountain of debt including foreign debt that is accumulating.(Except Ron Paul and he isn't going anywhere.) There is the usual talk about cutting spending but nobody is suggesting that they will bring in a balanced budget, unless I'm missing something which is always possible.

Doesn't anybody think this is a problem?

I've spun-off this message to become a new topic. See National Budgets and Budget Deficits. - Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See red box.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 4187 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 104 of 109 (455496)
02-12-2008 4:58 PM


McCain seems to be doing pretty well for someone that's not exactly well liked by so many conservatives. Anyone have a guess as to why this is?

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 02-12-2008 5:01 PM teen4christ has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6856
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 105 of 109 (455497)
02-12-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by teen4christ
02-12-2008 4:58 PM


Two possibilities:

(1) Rank and file Republicans are as tired of whiney conservatives as the rest of America;

(2) Republicans are afraid that the electorate won't vote for a fuckwit three times in a row.


If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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