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Author Topic:   The legalization of drugs
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 111 (363248)
11-11-2006 4:12 PM


Last night while on EvC chat, Jar and I got into a heated debate about drugs/narcotics and the best way to mitigate their societal effects. Jar proposed that all narcotics should be legalized for a few reasons. I have requested that he lay out in bullet format so that he can accurately portray his plan and to show you the positive effects of such an implementation. To paraphrase, Jar believes that legalizing drugs, even hard drugs, will eliminate drug cartels if the US government manufactures/grows the drugs and distributes them all over the nation. He posits that this will free up most prisons, as he believes that the majority of prisoners are in on drug charges to begin with. He feels that once the middle man is removed and money is no longer an issue, the greed that controls the underground drug market will all but fade away, helping to reduce crime overall. This is a very brief synopsis of Jar's argument. However, I don't want to miss some of the more critical aspects of his argument, so we agreed that he would supply the rest of the information himself.
Listening to his argument, it was very persuasive in that it almost sounds crazy enough to work. My contention is that the argument is too idealized. I believe he is simplifying the argument to perfect-world scenarios. Its kind of like Communism, in that, on paper I can't find one thing I dislike about it. But as we all know from experience, communism will only work in a utopian society-- it doesn't create the utopian society itself. Its an oversimplification of simplistic for such a complex issue. Here are my points:
I agree that if the US made its own drugs and distributed them for free, it would all but shut down the cartels, at least in the US. However, in order to subsidize this measure, it requires money from taxes-- our taxes. A goal of this magnitude would cost a small fortune because as we all know, there is nothing in life that is truly free. It will be free for the disenfranchized, but will cost middle America a fortune. Secondly, if the US becomes the only nation that supports this, the US will be the major exporter of drugs around the world. If we know anything about human nature, its that we will find a way to bastardize something good and exploit it for monetary gain.
Think of the size of surplus drugs, because we have no idea what the quantity of narcotics would be necessary to support the drug habit of a few million Americans. Dealing will still be an issue. Case in point: I don't do drugs, but lets say I tell the government that I do. The people with the drug addictions will no doubt be given an alotment. When they run out, people like me will use that to our advantage and sell our supply to the addicts. It will be the exact same problem except that now it will be state sanctioned drug dealing. I could make so much money of the appetite of those who 'need their fix.'
The next issue is the astronomical effects on healthcare. Thousands upon thousands of Americans die each year from lung cancer due to nicotene and carcinogens from contained in tobacco products. Legalizing it has done nothing to abate the problem. Awareness has. Jar says that the revenue of closing down prisons will be used to subsidize the project, but he neglects the impact on healthcare. Overdose patients are already a problem. Imagine how many more people will be dying from legalized drugs? Imagine the impact it will have on transportation safety as people are essentially encouraged to drive impaired. Jar claims that driving under the influence would still be illegal, but he neglects to think about people who simply don't care. We already have a problem with alcohol. Why compound the problem by adding legalized drugs into the picture?
I asked Jar, why, if this is such a great idea, that no other country, even Holland, has jumped onboard with this? He claimed that it was a strawman argument. I think its more than reasonable to ask this question as its very applicable. If complete legalization was worth the trouble I think at least one nation would have implemented this.
I also asked Jar to write to his congressmen to get a measure passed. He stated that he has been writing this for years and that he first needs to convince people like myself that it would work. I asked for a compromise since the US is the third largest nation in on the planet, as far as population is concerned. I asked that a liberal state, such as Nevada, would be a perfect testing ground for this, as their laws are already laxed as it is when juxtaposed by other states. He claimed that it will not work on the city or state level because its an open society. This makes no sense to me because the US is arguably the most open nation in the world! In fact, that's where the US' vulnerability as always been. Why would it work only on the national level as opposed to the state or city level? The US would be the largest distributor of drugs in the world, funneling into Canada our drugs and exporting our problems overseas.
In closing, I think it would fall flat on its face. Its too idealized to have any practical application. But if you disagree, explain to me why you feel it would work.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 11-11-2006 4:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 11-11-2006 4:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 10 by Jon, posted 11-11-2006 5:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 11-12-2006 2:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 111 (363249)
11-11-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 4:12 PM


I agree that we should decriminalize drugs. I prefer "decriminalize" to "legalize", because "legalize" suggests that it should be legal to advertise drugs on billboards and on TV.
My bottom line is this: if criminals who are already locked up in jail still have ready access to drugs, then our current policy cannot possibly work.
As for why other countries don't do this, you would have to ask them. However, it is plain to see, that what drives the world wide drug business is consumer demand for drugs within the U.S.A. We try to supress the supply in Colombia or Afghanistan. But as long as there is demand in the U.S.A., one suppressed supplier will quickly be replaced by another supplier.
The campaign against nicotene use has been more effective than the campaigns against cocaine and opium derivatives.
Patient: When I poke myself in the eye, it hurts;
Doctor: then stop poking yourself in the eye.
We need to follow the doctor's advice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 4:12 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2006 4:38 PM nwr has replied
 Message 8 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 5:04 PM nwr has replied
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 111 (363252)
11-11-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
11-11-2006 4:22 PM


Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
Why not a pilot program with one drug to judge the effect.
Marijuana.
This would (ahem) bring us in to alignment with a number of nations that HAVE decriminalized it (Canada being one).
It could be put into the same provisions and conditions as are applied to alcohol use and abuse.
We could also parole all people convicted ONLY of possesion to free up prison space for those sex offenders from congress.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 11-11-2006 4:22 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 111 (363254)
11-11-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 4:12 PM


For the record, I still haven't made up my mind on this issue. However, I have heard many arguments from both sides.
What you guys have failed to consider is that legalizing drugs will at least allow the government to regulate them much like alcohol. Sure, alcohol kills people and ruin lives, but at least the effects are miniscule compared to the era of prohibition.
But you are right for once JN that certain arguments are perfect on paper, much like communism, until you put it to practice.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 4:12 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 5:21 PM Taz has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 5 of 111 (363255)
11-11-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
11-11-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
I have no problem with that. The criminalization of marijuana demonstrates that our drug program is all about politics.
If we seriously want to eliminate harmful drugs, let's ban sucrose and dextrose. Maybe we could throw in caffeine for good measure.
... to free up prison space for those sex offenders from congress.
I love that sense of humor.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 111 (363256)
11-11-2006 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
11-11-2006 4:48 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
quote:
If we seriously want to eliminate harmful drugs, let's ban sucrose and dextrose. Maybe we could throw in caffeine for good measure.
Anyone who suggests making chocolate illegal is funny in the head.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 7 by Taz, posted 11-11-2006 5:00 PM nator has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 111 (363257)
11-11-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
11-11-2006 4:56 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
schraf writes:
Anyone who suggests making chocolate illegal is funny in the head.
How so? I have been struggling with my chocolate adiction for as long as I could remember. I'm sure that there are many others who share the same struggle.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 11-11-2006 4:56 PM nator has replied

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 111 (363258)
11-11-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
11-11-2006 4:22 PM


The drug problem
My bottom line is this: if criminals who are already locked up in jail still have ready access to drugs, then our current policy cannot possibly work.
I've always found that odd how drugs can be smuggled into prisons. That's just sad because if drugs can get in, what else can as well? I think it speaks more highly against the US prison system than it does the drug problem.
As for why other countries don't do this, you would have to ask them. However, it is plain to see, that what drives the world wide drug business is consumer demand for drugs within the U.S.A. We try to supress the supply in Colombia or Afghanistan. But as long as there is demand in the U.S.A., one suppressed supplier will quickly be replaced by another supplier.
I would certainly agree that the current solution is anything but a solution. I do think some changes need to be made. I also believe that marijuana should be 'decriminalized,' as you say. Only drug pushers go in for that one and have the state or govt' regulate it and have it fall under the category of the ATF. But hard drugs are awful. Legalizing them will not make less addicts, it will make more of them and exacerbate the problem.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 11-11-2006 4:22 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by nwr, posted 11-11-2006 5:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 65 by tsig, posted 11-12-2006 10:38 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 111 (363259)
11-11-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
11-11-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
Why not a pilot program with one drug to judge the effect.
Marijuana.
I would support this. Simple possession should be decriminalized, but pushers should go in. If it can be regulated, I'd be down for a trial, but only with marijuana for the time being.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 111 (363260)
11-11-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 4:12 PM


How many times do you hear of people getting kild over "alcohol wars" or "tobacco wars" on the street? Any vodka cartels that you know of? I can't think of any.
How much money does the U.S. goverment make on taxes for the sale of marijuana or other "illegal substances"? Any at all? How much money is spent trying to take out people just toating a few ounces? More money than is made when those people are busted?
I think that legalizing or "decriminalizing" (I also agree that advertisements for these things would be bad) currently "illegal drugs" would not only make for a safer easier to control market for the drugs, but it could also be economically beneficial to the government as well.
Any takes?
J0N

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 111 (363262)
11-11-2006 5:18 PM


Anyone got any idea what drugs George Bush is on?

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 111 (363265)
11-11-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
11-11-2006 4:46 PM


Law enforcement
For the record, I still haven't made up my mind on this issue. However, I have heard many arguments from both sides.
I know you are going into law enforcement, so you are a bit torn with your beliefs. I'll give you my own perspective as I used to be in law enforcement. Whenever I caught someone with drugs in their possession, I had to assess the situation for what it is. For instance, my partner and I pulled over a vehicle for a random vehicle inspection (military, not civilian). I found a little pipe in the cab of his truck. He was looking really nervous. My partner, (being a young buck), came in their like gangbusters wanting to arrest him for simple possession. Because I was senior, I implored him not to do that. All it would do is get this guy a tiny little bs charge that merely inconvenienced him. It's not going to make him stop smoking weed, but it will give him a record and get his trucking licence pulled. We already checked for warrants, and he didn't he have so much as a speeding ticket. Why ruin this man's career for something so small?
So, I informed him that he needs to be careful while coming on base with drug parapharnalia. I explained that I was cutting him a break, but that I had his info. If he did the same thing by not heeding my warning, he was going to go down hard for making me a fool over my kindness. What do you think I just did instead of going in there like gangbusters? 1. If he had a bad taste for law enforcement, I forced him to concede that good cops exist. That's a high mark for public relations. 2. I spared his career and his livelihood. 3. Because I let him go, but instilled the fear of God in him for next time, he will think twice about being stupid.
Now, having said that, I had another scenario. A civilian pulled up to my gate looking high as a kite. Apparently he took a wrong turn and ended up Federal land, subject to federal law. Whoops. I sent him into the inspection lane and asked some simple questions. He was lying right off the bat. Before the search, I asked him if he had any weapons or drugs. He said, no. He then changed his mind and said that he quick using heroin a few months ago, but that there might be an old baggy in the glove compartment. When he said that, he was pointing towards his car and I noticed fresh track marks. Well, needless to say, I discovered multiple ounces of heroin embedded in the seats of his car. He had built for himself an elaborate hiding spot for drugs. I ran his information and it turns out he was out on parole for a number of charges. I had no qualms for taking him in. 1. He had large quantities of hard drugs. 2. He lied to me even though I was very up front with him. 3. He was a repeat offender.
So, from a future law enforcement officer, I'd say that you fight battles only worth while and make a friend of the community whenever possible.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 111 (363267)
11-11-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
11-11-2006 4:48 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
If we seriously want to eliminate harmful drugs, let's ban sucrose and dextrose. Maybe we could throw in caffeine for good measure.
You need not tell me about the duplicity of US policy concerning drugs. It stultifying to think that tobacco and alcohol are legal while a little mary jane is illegal. Both are far more dangerous. In this case, its all about politics.
How do you feel about the hard drugs though? Do you think giving people free reign would make them more or less responsible?

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 14 of 111 (363268)
11-11-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 5:04 PM


Re: The drug problem
I think it speaks more highly against the US prison system than it does the drug problem.
We have the prison system we are willing to pay for. If you want a better prison system, then you have to be willing to pay far more per prisoner than we currently spend.
But hard drugs are awful. Legalizing them will not make less addicts, it will make more of them and exacerbate the problem.
Typical right wing thinking. But this kind of thinking does not explain the reduction in nicotine use.
It is not at all obvious that decriminalizing drugs will exacerbate the problem. Right now one of the problems is that the easiest way for a drug addict to pay for his drugs, is that he get into the drug pushing business himself. Our drug laws force up drug prices, and increase the profitability for drug pushing.
Have you paid attention to how the U.S. government fights drugs? It coerces countries like Columbia to adopt policies that would be clearly unconstitutional in the U.S. As long as we value freedom from government coercion, drug pushers will find ways of doing business. If decriminalazation lowers the profits enough, you might actually reduce the size of the drug retail business. You would need to spend money (tax payer's money) publicizing the risks of these drugs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 5:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:08 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 111 (363269)
11-11-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
11-11-2006 5:18 PM


Anyone got any idea what drugs George Bush is on?
Evangelical Christianity and right wing ideology. It's powerful stuff, well known to drive people nutty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 11-11-2006 5:18 PM Brian has not replied

  
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