Tal's Iraq War: Blood for Oil, Oil for Food, Food for Thought

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Contracycle clearly doesn't worship anybody, and occassionally feels the need to be photographed pissing on the grave of Karl Marx to make the point.

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C'mon, don't tease us. You have to show this picture. (Of course, feel free to blur out any identifying characteristics).

We have another name for that. Faith.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

I was thinking of message 138, actually. You did sound a bit annoyed.Oh, and I wasn't totally equating yours and Contracyle's style of posting.Sorry, I can understand you not wanting to be thought of as being like him, and I don't.I was just making the point that politeness combined with lots of facts and evidence does get results sometimes, where getting angry and lashing out rarely does.You understand that fully, but Contra does not.Again, apologies.

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Contracycle in fact holds to a philosophical discipline known as dialectical materialism which necessarily requires evidence from the real world. And contracycle holds his positions becuase he can support them from the real world, and has recanted positions that he could not.

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Then you should support them in your arguments instead of calling your opponents insulting names.Your position is much more poweful when it is filled with fact instead of invective.

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Contracycle is also outspoken in his denunciation of moralism as any form of meaningful dialogue.

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Of course. But speak out without invective and the words will be heard. With it, and they will be ignored.It is entirely your choice if you want to be heard or not.

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Contracycle clearly doesn't worship anybody, and occassionally feels the need to be photographed pissing on the grave of Karl Marx to make the point. Contracycle is also, by virtue of his politics, formally signed up to a doctrine of internationalism which perforce assumes the existence of good people in every country. On the other hand, Contracycle does not beleive that the population of Nazi germany was universally evil and therefore points to the pernicious effect of doctrines and ideologies of superiority which make good people do evil things.

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That's great.Now, see, you didn't insult anybody there, and I read it. Good job.

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Way to go Schraff, you've just conceded one of the theists most primitive arguments, which is that if you have not seen it with your own eyes its hearsay, thus evolution etc can be treated as equivalent to creationism.

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Yeah, yeah, whatever.

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This also teeters on the edge of being American Exceptionalism, seeming to imply that the rules of other states cannot be generalised to the US state. Nil Point, as they in Eurovision.

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No, the reality of what the American people live like and believe cannot be generalized.Let us recall how this started, Contra.Nobody pays any attention to the rude man shouting on top of the little mountain.

Schrafinator:Thanks...but I do have to admit that I do get annoyed with Tal at times. I asked a simple question for which I have not yet seen a reply. All I want is for him to somehow explain how he feels about Gov Bush's own words and President Bush's actions. I would prefer he do it without bringing up 9/11, but I'm not sure that's possible.And I do agree with your take on contracycle. I do so much more enjoy reading his posts when he presents lots of interesting facts (and he does come up with some good ones), than I do when he says things like "the best thing for the World would be the destruction of the U.S."...(or words to those effect).

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Thanks...but I do have to admit that I do get annoyed with Tal at times. I asked a simple question for which I have not yet seen a reply. All I want is for him to somehow explain how he feels about Gov Bush's own words and President Bush's actions. I would prefer he do it without bringing up 9/11, but I'm not sure that's possible.

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I'm right there with you. It's pretty clear that there are some things that Tal just will not address. He wil just not ackowledge that they exist.I have lots of practice with that kind of behavior from Creationists. Just know that if they cannot answer or run away from the conversation, you have won.

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And I do agree with your take on contracycle. I do so much more enjoy reading his posts when he presents lots of interesting facts (and he does come up with some good ones), than I do when he says things like "the best thing for the World would be the destruction of the U.S."...(or words to those effect).

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That's what I've been trying to tell him, but it seems like he will defend his methods no matter what.

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Then you should support them in your arguments instead of calling your opponents insulting names. Your position is much more poweful when it is filled with fact instead of invective.

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Being a professional killer is to carry out murder, but that is a FACT you seem keen to elide.

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It is entirely your choice if you want to be heard or not.

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Excfept for onew major fasult in your reasoning that has tripped up governments for time immemorial: if you use such an excuse to ignore my arguments, then resort to force will be next.

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No, the reality of what the American people live like and believe cannot be generalized.

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Oh no? Why not? American Exceptionalism again - there are no rules that apply to the mighty, virtuous Aemrica! It is a unique historical phenomenon!What utter rubbish; this is pure hubris. America has an identifiable culture like any other country:

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If you're American...

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* You believe deep down in the First Amendment, guaranteed by the government and perhaps by God.
* You're familiar with David Letterman, Mary Tyler Moore, Saturday Night Live, Bewitched, the Flintstones, Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, Bob Newhart, Bill Cosby, Bugs Bunny, Road Runner, Donald Duck, the Fonz, Archie Bunker, Star Trek, the Honeymooners, the Addams Family, the Three Stooges, and Beetle Bailey.
* You know how baseball, basketball, and American football are played. If you're male, you can argue intricate points about their rules. On the other hand (and unless you're under about 20), you don't care that much for soccer.
* You count yourself fortunate if you get three weeks of vacation a year.

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Everybody knows that

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* Mustard comes in jars. Shaving cream comes in cans. Milk comes in plastic jugs or cardboard boxes, and occasionally in bottles.
* The date comes second: 11/22/63. (And you know what happened on that date.)
* The decimal point is a dot. Certainly not a comma.
* A billion is a thousand times a million.
* World War II was a just war, and (granted all the suffering of course) ended all right. It was a time when the country came together and did what was right. And instead of insisting on vengeance, the US very generously rebuilt Europe instead, with the Marshall Plan.
* You expect marriages to be made for love, not arranged by third parties. Getting married by a judge is an option, but not a requirement; most marriages happen in church. You have a best man and a maid or matron of honor at the wedding-- a friend or a sibling. And, naturally, a man gets only one wife at a time.
* If a man has sex with another man, he's a homosexual.
* Once you're introduced to someone (well, besides the President and other lofty figures), you can call them by their first name.
* If you're a woman, you don't go to the beach topless.
* A hotel room has a private bath.
* You'd rather a film be subtitled than dubbed (if you go to foreign films at all).
* You seriously expect to be able to transact business, or deal with the government, without paying bribes.
* If a politican has been cheating on his wife, you would question his ability to govern.
* Just about any store will take your credit card.
* A company can fire just about anybody it wants, unless it discriminates by doing so.
* You like your bacon crisp (unless it's Canadian bacon, of course).
* Labor Day is in the fall.

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http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html

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Let us recall how this started, Contra.

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I remember how it started - you denied the material fact that soldiers commit murder. But because I am a more rigorous thinker than you are, I do not make this apologists error, and describe the material facts as they are. If you and Tal cannot handle tha facts, that is not my problem it is yours. Facetiously describing description of material fact as "insult" is merely an attempt to poison the well.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-19-2005 06:02 AM

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And I do agree with your take on contracycle. I do so much more enjoy reading his posts when he presents lots of interesting facts (and he does come up with some good ones), than I do when he says things like "the best thing for the World would be the destruction of the U.S."...(or words to those effect).

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So what you are saying, FliesOnly, that if you find someones position aesthetically displeasing you discredit the argument.Yet, it is exactly this act of censorship that makes the US like Nazi Germany - the sense of self righteousness and national destiny that refuses to acknowledge any interpretation other than that of the domestic spin.It is precisely this act that makes me so confident in my analysis; even otherwise rational people like yourself and Schraf are so permeated by American propaganda that you are simply unable to engage with the real world. It is this fact that explains the bizarre phenomenon of Americans reacting ot 9/11 in incomprehension. Nobody wants to acknowledge the elephant in the corner.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-19-2005 06:02 AM

As a footnote to the article on American Culture above:

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You went over US history, and some European, in school, Not much Russian, Chinese, or Latin American. You couldn't name ten US interventions in Latin America.

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Can you name ten interventions in Latin America off the top of your head Schraf?Corollary question: Why does the US not teach an accurate account of its military history?This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-19-2005 06:05 AM

If you mean it can be stereotyped, that is true. But that does not make the stereotypes true for everyone or everything.Even before I started travelling, there were several points on that list that did not accurately depict me, or people I knew.In any case that was superficial sterotypical issues. Your commentary on life in the US goes beyond that level and beyond inaccuracy. I really have nothing to gain, or reason not to bad mouth the US. I certainly do badmouth it on many occasions.The problem is that you blow up issues beyond how they exist in reality. It would be the equivalent of knowing that there is some cultural unrest in S Africa, and then an American saying "S AFrica is filled with backwards tribes warring in traditional costume against each other and not answerable to any gov't."Or maybe more appropriately a US official saying that the problem with the midEast is that there is no democracy and is being ruled by people that hate freedom.Yeah, that is about as off base as the descriptions you give of the US.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)"Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

Contracycle: No, that is not at all what I am sayingcan’t you read? I really do enjoy reading through most of your posts, but when you refer to soldiers as murderers or say it would be best for the World if the U.S. was destroyed, I step back and assess not only these facts, but everything else I had read as well. They take away from your message, which is then ignored by many peopleand of what value is that?I must assume that you consider every war to be such that one side consists of the good guys and the other side consists of murderers? Why are you not demanding that every German WWII vet be arrested and put on trial as murderers? Or are you of the mind set that it was the other countries (the Allies) that were actually the murders? Maybe all U.S., Australian, and British WWII vets should be behind bars. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but it does seem to me that since in every war there are two sides (basically) then by your standards, one side or the other has to be nothing but murderers. See, here's a good example. Comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany? Why Nazi Germany? There have been hundreds of wars fought in the past, so why do you pick Nazi Germany as your model for comparison? You do it soley for the shock value, not because of any realistic link with the ideals and goals of the Nazis.
And what act of censorship are you talking about? Not calling our soldiers murderers is censorship? I’ve read through back though a number of the posts at this thread (including those by Holmes, Schrafinator, and Loudmouth) and nowhere do I see an acknowledgement of the domestic spin. Quite to the contrary as a matter of factso just WTF are you talking about? Again, this is simply not true. We have said just about everything that you haveexcept for the name-calling.And what am I to take of your list on American Culture? Since quite a few don’t apply, I guess I’m not a part of your American Culture.

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If you mean it can be stereotyped, that is true.

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I did not.

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The problem is that you blow up issues beyond how they exist in reality.

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Thats what nationalist South African domestic dogma used to insist too. Getting the picture yet? They were wrong. There attempts to explain away such criticism by resorting to claims of malice and exaggeration were discredited and disproven. The critics were right.

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Yeah, that is about as off base as the descriptions you give of the US.

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... according to an American, continuously exposed to America's self-apologia.Yet again holmes what you demonstrate is that any observation about America that contradicts America's nationaly mythology will be rejected as "extreme" and "exaggerated". Which is an easy excuse for rejecting the criticism without inspection.

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No, that is not at all what I am sayingcan’t you read? I really do enjoy reading through most of your posts, but when you refer to soldiers as murderers or say it would be best for the World if the U.S. was destroyed, I step back and assess not only these facts, but everything else I had read as well. They take away from your message, which is then ignored by many peopleand of what value is that?

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You're not answering the question. WHY do they take away from my message?And the value is that the truth has been spoken. I suspect thats a genuinely rare event in the experience of most Americans.

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I must assume that you consider every war to be such that one side consists of the good guys and the other side consists of murderers?

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No I consider ALL armies without excpetion to consist of murderers.

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Why are you not demanding that every German WWII vet be arrested and put on trial as murderers?

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Because we have already had the Nuremburg trials and due process has been completed.

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Or are you of the mind set that it was the other countries (the Allies) that were actually the murders? Maybe all U.S., Australian, and British WWII vets should be behind bars. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but it does seem to me that since in every war there are two sides (basically) then by your standards, one side or the other has to be nothing but murderers.

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No, both sides. I refuse to acnkowledge the purposeful and deliberate killing of human beings as anything other than murder. If you had read my argument with Quetzal about civilian casualties, you will see that this position is relentlessly consistent with everything I have said. It's even consistent with my stance on gun control as per previous thread: I say if yuou bought a tool for killing people, and then you kill someone with it, then you have clearly committed murder. I don't want to hear any "it was an accident" bullshit. If you buy a tool for killing people and SUCCEEDED in doing so there was no "accident".

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See, here's a good example. Comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany? Why Nazi Germany? There have been hundreds of wars fought in the past, so why do you pick Nazi Germany as your model for comparison?

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Because of the doctrine of supremacy. Becuase of the implicit racism and hostility for other nationalities. Becuase of the unilateriualism and hostility to internaiotnal bodies. Becuase of the doctrine of manifest destiny. BECAUSE IT IS THE BEST, MOST SIMILAR, COMPARATOR.

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You do it soley for the shock value, not because of any realistic link with the ideals and goals of the Nazis.

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Thats a lie and I demand you withdraw it. I will NOT be accused of provocation.

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And what act of censorship are you talking about? Not calling our soldiers murderers is censorship?

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No - your rejection of the comparison to Nazi Germany as malicious. You are self-censoring, providing your own apologetic for why I "can't possibly" mean what I say I mean.

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Again, this is simply not true. We have said just about everything that you haveexcept for the name-calling.

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You mean, "except for the bits that we decided *must* be name calling because no Right Thinking Person could possible mean that seriously". Right? Right.Withdraw your accusation please.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-19-2005 10:05 AM

Oh dear, where has this thread gone? So, in your opinion there is no difference between a soldier who only shoots when shot at and an individual that cuts peoples' heads off and posts the videos on the internet? Interesting. So what would be the comparison between the US and the Nazis sticking 6 million people in ovens?

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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So, in your opinion there is no difference between a soldier who only shoots when shot at and an individual that cuts peoples' heads off and posts the videos on the internet?

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The question is meaningless because no army on the planet in its entire history has behaved that way. A volunteer soldier is a person who decides to make a career out of homicide. At least conscript soldiers have an excuse.

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Interesting. So what would be the comparison between the US and the Nazis sticking 6 million people in ovens?

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A slight over-extension - Nazi Germany did not start out that way. But we do see exactly the same mindset operational in the false labelling of "insurgents", the abnegation of all human rights in America's gulags, and the merciless butchery under way in Iraq.I fully expect that America will live up to that historic precedent, and that the American public will turn exactly the same blind eye they turn to all Americas other atrocities. Lets not forget of course that the US has been running death-squads in latin America for decades.By the way: can you name 10 US interventions in latin america?