Defining Unconditional love

But throwing your children into the pit of hell for all eternity? That's anything but unconditional love.Look, I'd rather not exist at all then be tortured for a very very long time.Here is another way you can look at it. My wife and I are on an island. We decide to beget a child and love it unconditionally. When the child is 10, we tell him, "don't ever go to the other side of the island or I will beat the crap out of you." He goes to the other side of the island. I tie him up and start whipping him until he passes out. I wait for him to recover and whip him some more. Everyday, I'd whip him until he passes out. I do this until he turns 20.Does that sound like unconditional love to you?Remember that god is all knowing and all powerful. He knew that at age 20 I was going to turn into an atheist. So, he allowed me to enter this world simply to throw me into hell for all eternity. Does that sound like an all loving father figure to you? If it does, I'm sorry but you need help.

jesus, your post reads like a horror story. How many believers in god actually did sacrifce their children in god's name? In loving god unconditionally pain was definately present. More for some.Taz, I understand the opposite of unconditional love as you describe. It's a bit over the top, isn't it? I wasn't alluding to so much pain, just the normal associated with giving unconditional love in todays society.So now we know what it is not, can you tell us what it is?

How many believers you know actually believe in an eternal hell for atheists like myself and for believers of other religions? And you're missing the point.(A) God is all knowing.
(B) God loves me unconditionally.
(C) God knew that I was going to turn atheist at the age of 20.
(D) According to christians, I owe my existence to god.
(E) God specifically created me so I could exist in hell for all eternity after I'm dead.Again, does that make sense to you? Would an all loving father figure who loves his children unconditionally torture his children for all eternity if they don't listen to him, especially when he knew before they even existed that he would have to cast them down to hell regardless? Sure, go back and undo existence or redo it without a hell and eternal damnation.Going back to first quote. When I was in sociology in college a million years ago, we studied some of the worst child abuse cases in history of the country. (I just found it interesting that almost all of them involved religious parents.) There was one case in particular that caught my eyes right away. A retarded teenager was raped and got pregnant. Her parents made her put the resulting child in the barn without any parental love. The teen was allowed to feed the child several times a day and then put it back in the barn. This went on until the child was 6 when someone noticed this and alerted the authority.The child grew up without any social interaction whatsoever. Psychologists were intrigued because the child had no idea how to react to things like pain, meaning he didn't even cry out when he's hurt.Oh, and did I mention that the teen's parents claimed they did that because they "loved" their daughter and grandkid? Abortion was out of the question because of their religion, and the kid was a result from rape so it didn't deserve to live with the family. Sounds like a classic case of christian hell to me.I'm not saying all christians are like this. I'm saying this is a real live demonstration of what the true christian idea of an all loving parent figure with a hell on the side. Do you or do you not agree that the teen parents loved their daughter and grandson unconditionally like they claimed?

Taz It makes NO! sense to me at all.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

Allow me to enter the discussion for a moment. )I'm practicing this argument in my head, so bear with me as I attempt to reconstruct it here )My Point:
Assuming for a moment that there are two spirits.
1) The One who is, always was, and always will be and
2) The one who was, is not and yet will come.
See...the problem is, we are not only trying to place all of the responsibility and blame on God for eternally being in charge of this stuff, we are attempting to foreknow the future.Lets go back over your points and allow me to comment: We are only responsible for our present moment. The past is past and the future is not our problem except in regards to our present behaviors and decisions.Edited by Phat, : fixed quoteEdited by Phat, : No reason given.

Ok, so god loved everyone unconditionally so much that he created Hitler just so Hitler could torture and kill millions and millions of people just so Hitler could go to hell for all eternity. Phat, in order for you to solve one stumbling block you created yourself a kazillion others. Ok, mumble jumble aside, address the issue directly please. Is god all knowing or not? If so, then he knew I was going to turn atheist and thus will go to the christian hell. If he didn't, then he's not god and we need not worry. Gee, you didn't address my issue at all.Christian doctrine specifically says that everyone is damned from the start, and it is only accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal savior will one be spared of eternal damnation.The fact remains that I'm an atheist. I turned atheist when I was about 20. If god was all knowing, he would have known that I would have turned into an atheist and thus be damned. He created me anyway.At this point, I only see 3 possible choices.(1) God is all knowing, he created me anyway just so I could go to hell, and thus he does not love me unconditionally.(2) God is not all knowing, he didn't know I was going to turn atheist, and thus he is not really god.(3) God is all knowing, he created me knowing I would reject him when I turned 20, he loves me me unconditionally, and so there is no hell.

I think what Jesus was saying was that it is most virtuous to love everyone, even your enemies. He goes on to say, if you only love those who love you, what reward will you have? Do not even pagans do this?So we have to find out what the word "love" here means. Does loving someone mean doting on them, hand and foot, becoming their servant for all of time no matter if they treat you poorly or not?No. It means to treat them with the Golden Rule, even your enemies. The crux of it is that we are not equipped to complete the task with perfection. But the closer we are to that perfect goal of loving others the way God loves us, the better off we are, and the more receptive of God we become. I don't think you have to stop loving a person even when they wrong you. In Christian terms, you would still care for that person, be in prayer for that person, and wish them the best. But you are not supposed to be shackled to a completely abusive person as a personal mandate from God. Think about it: If Jesus wanted you to love every one in the same exact capacity, then you would be married to the entire world. Obviously, that is not the case. And all over the Bible is says to choose your mate's carefully so as to avoid these trials.What it means to love someone is to not to harbor a spirit of animosity, be forgiving to others who wrong you(forgiveness does not mean that you don't have to suffer consequences for your actions, or is a free ticket to be an ass your whole life), and to try and sow peace where there is discord. Love in many ways is conditional. The unconditional love means treating people the way you would have them treat you. It doesn't mean you have to suffer a lifetime with someone who doesn't treat you the way you would treat them.Its like a murderer. He may be truly sorry for what he has done. And this is a good thing for his own conscience. And he may be absolved by God if he sincerely means it. But these are eternally difficult questions to answer because we are not able to give that absolution. All we can do is to forgive them. But forgiveness does not necessarily mean that they are to be exonerated for their crime.A man who engages in some sexual sin can and will be forgiven for his sin for evermore even though he may have to carry a token of that sin in his flesh. There are consequences for our actions. We may have to pay temporal consequences even if we are forgiven.If you receive a loan from a lender and you later realize that you made a mistake, you can be forgiven for making a hasty decision. But you still owe that person or institution. Until you pay your debt, you are not free of that consequence.These are eternally difficult questions that we grapple with. Sometimes there is no easy answer, nor will the answer always come easily. But if we follow the Golden Rule, can we really go wrong? And isn't is maddening that something so simple in concept can be one of the hardest things to achieve?

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“First dentistry was painless, then bicycles were chainless, and carriages were horseless, and many laws enforceless. Next cookery was fireless, telegraphy was wireless, cigars were nicotineless, and coffee caffeineless. Soon oranges were seedless, the putting green was weedless, the college boy was hatless, the proper diet -- fatless. New motor roads are dustless, the latest steel is rustless, our tennis courts are sodless, our new religion -- Godless” -Arthur Guiterman

How would I ever know if God was all knowing or not? Not all Christian doctrine says this. Good. We cleared up the present moment, at any rate. Lets analyze your conclusions.
(1) ...God does not love me unconditionally (IF He exists)
(2) God is clueless and thus a phony.
(3) God loves me unconditionally and thus there is no Hell.I would go with # 3. Hell only exists for those who reject reality.

Christianiy claims to have the monopoly on truth. You're a christian. Huh? I've attended dozens of churches... Ok, let's take another approach.Do you or do you not believe that everyone is born with the "original" sin and that through baptism one is absorbed of this sin? If you do believe this, then how is this different than being saved only by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior? If you don't believe this, then what is the point of christianity? Can't we all just live and not bother with religion? Ok, so you don't believe in hell. What happens to all the bad people after they die, according to your christian belief?

To me, accepting Jesus Christ means accepting GOD as knowable. This allows for further prayer, meditation, and reflection in communion. People find it harder to commune with an unknowable God.As far as Original Sin goes, I'm not sure at this point. First of all, what by definition is a bad person? Is atheist Taz any worse than Christian phat? Furthermore, is child molester John Wayne Gacy any worse than the Pope? (Or some of the Catholic Priests) or Hitler? Or our Mothers?Again...as I say...Hell is only found after a rejection of reality.

Let's cut through all the nitpickings. What happens to people like Hitler after they die?

Several possibilities.1) They die, cease to exist, and turn to worm food.
2) They die, are judged by the decisions made in their lives, extenuating circumstances (like childhood abuse or mental illness) and judged based on their reaction to meeting Jesus face to face.
3) They die, their soulish essence is drawn into communion with other soulish essences, and a new form of intelligence emerges.

I just love answers that are nonanswers. Actually, I don't.

But you are asking me questions that I can't possibly answer.That must have been your problem with God, too. You never heard a clear sign, so you concluded that you were brainwashed by a bunch of unloving fundamentalists and threw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater. Its OK...I question things too...but some things are obvious to me.who cares if God saves everybody? I can get along with Hitler if God allows him to clean up, first. And that annoying street guy at church that always wants a ride home! And that irritable assistant manager at work.I believe that I only will be able to have unconditional love with Gods help, however. I like teenagers but I dislike smelly old street people. Know what I mean?

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In a love relationship with anyone, do the lovers expect something in return? Does Jesus?

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Well, I don't know about Jesus, but if we're talking about the Abrahamic God, He most definitely expects a lot in return.The OT God's love is very conditional.