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Author Topic:   Death of a Scotsman (Re: the "no true Scotsman" fallacy)
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 151 of 210 (288639)
02-20-2006 11:12 AM


How do we judge something?
I think the point in this thread is that we can only judge a group by the actions of it's members and the organizations that claim to represent it. Christianity is a group that includes both people who do bad things like Pat Robertson and people who do good things like Mother Theresa. I think it is fair to say that Christianity is like any other group; it has good and it has bad.
I think Jar's suggestion is a good one for Christians: If those who claim to be Christians are doing things you think are wrong or non-christian, then make it your duty to speak out against them. If you believe they are no true Christians; then speak out about why you think they are not following the teachings of christ.
Pat Roberston for example is a person who does bad things who claims to be a christian. I think it's better to speak out against him, than to say "It doesn't matter, he's not a true christian"
Edit: I have edited my post because I think it's unfair for me to say "bad person" and instead I have replaced that with "person who does bad things"
This message has been edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, 02-20-2006 11:51 AM

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 210 (288640)
02-20-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by riVeRraT
02-20-2006 11:02 AM


Re: Pretty silly post
Well, I doubt that you were old enough to have been responsible for what Hitler did. But Christianity certainly was, and is. And like all Christians, including me, we are responsible for the errors Christianity is making today unless we stand up and point them out.
Unless we recognize the evils done by Christianity in the past, how can we expect to recognize the evils being done by Christianity today?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 153 of 210 (288650)
02-20-2006 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-20-2006 11:12 AM


Re: How do we judge something?
I think the point in this thread is that we can only judge a group by the actions of it's members and the organizations that claim to represent it. Christianity is a group that includes both bad people like Pat Robertson and good people like Mother Theresa. I think it is fair to say that Christianity is like any other group; it has good and it has bad.
I couldn't agree more, but that does not make the logic behind the NTS valid.
Or does it make the indiviuals responsible for others actions.
I think Jar's suggestion is a good one for Christians: If those who claim to be Christians are doing things you think are wrong or non-christian, then make it your duty to speak out against them. If you believe they are no true Christians; then speak out about why you think they are not following the teachings of christ.
I do, all the time. But try not to be a hypocrite at the same time.
That is why I don't even know if I am a Christian or not. God will let me know exactly what I did wrong and right, and I am counting on his grace.
Pat Roberston for example is a bad person who claims to be a christian. I think it's better to speak out against him, than to say "It doesn't matter, he's not a true christian"
It becomes tough, in that we do not want to judge sometimes. I think we can all judge for ourselves. If we ask ourselves honestly, are the rules of Christianity responsible for the actions of Pat Robertson, I would answer no.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 154 of 210 (288652)
02-20-2006 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
02-20-2006 11:04 AM


Re: The no true human fallacy
From a Christian standpoint, individually, can we say that all humans are Christians? Can we say that all Christians are Christ like?
I don't know honestly.
I believe there was a change that God made to us once Christ came.
I don't even know if I am a true Christian or not, I would say no. I am not perfect.
The bible doesn't say you have to be Christian to get into heaven.

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Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 155 of 210 (288660)
02-20-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by riVeRraT
02-20-2006 11:38 AM


Re: The no true human fallacy
Not to take the thread off-topic but:
The bible doesn't say you have to be Christian to get into heaven.
It's VERY refreshing to hear someone say that. Kudos RiverRat.
To get back on topic: I'm not sure that the no true scotsman is actuallly a fallacy, but I would agree with Jar that it is a cop-out.
To me, this whole argument reminds me of how some in this country regard those who criticize bush or the war in iraq to not be true americans.

This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 156 of 210 (288669)
02-20-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by riVeRraT
02-20-2006 10:46 AM


christians and scots
Then the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.
There are rules that Christians are supposed to follow, like the ten commandments.
They are supposed to follow them, but not following a commandment doesn't suddenly make you not a Christian (or a Jew), it makes you a Christian who has sinned. That's why Catholics have confession...after all if coveting is against the ten commandments, then there are very few Christians by your reckoning. Also taking the lord's name in vain would discount many.
As a side note, I remember reading that the commandments actually say things like 'thou shalt not murder'. If murder is unlawful killing then Hitler could argue he didn't commit murder.
So there is no such thing as a Christian or a Scotsman.
That's not what I said. There is such a thing as a Christian. Its someone who accepts Christ is the messiah. What I am saying is that there is no such things as a 'true' Christian because, when used in debate it is basically a malleable concept that bends to whatever point the debater is trying to raise.
There are just Christians, some of them more righteous than others, some more virtuous than others, but all Christians, not one of them is more a 'true' Christian than any other.
Well you pretty much summed up my arguement there.
I didn't because I was talking about racism so the context was out, being a Scotsman is a choice but being Scottish isn't. Your argument is that the NTS is different from NTC because Scotsmanness is not a choice and Christianity is. Which is far from what I was saying. I am saying that being a Scotsman is characterised as being something more than coming from Scotland by NTSers and Christianity is characterised as something more than accepting Christ as the messiah, the saviour etc by NTCers...
Its a fallacy to claim that no true Christian would do x. It is more accurate to say that it is a poor Christian that would do x, and a Christian that doesn't represent Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2006 10:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 157 of 210 (288679)
02-20-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by riVeRraT
02-20-2006 11:36 AM


Re: How do we judge something?
Or does it make the indiviuals responsible for others actions.
What you are arguing against isn't the NTS argument. You are arguing against the position that christianity is bad because it actually causes or promotes people to do bad things. That isn't neccessarily a straw man, I have seen people make such claims, but it certainly has nothing to do with the NTS argument unless you yourself are using NTS as a defense.
TTFN,
WK

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 158 of 210 (288835)
02-20-2006 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by NosyNed
02-20-2006 1:47 AM


Paradox of Faith
Just those who most believe they are the ones who have slain the beast are those that we must most fear.
You're still not understanding me because I'm speaking in terms of faith. What we hope for may not be manifested at the present moment. But the only way to manifest it is to endure in faith that you have received it. This is the paradox of faith in Christianity. Mark 11:24 That is why I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.
My flesh died with Christ, yet it still lives, and I must put it to death daily. Rom 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren ... to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God..." Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.
We always have to be on our guard against the beastly flesh, but the only way we can defeat it is if we have faith that it is dead.
Its kinda like the power of positive thinking except with the promises of God to back it up.
You've heard the story of the Indian guy who married this ugly chick, but paid a huge dowry and kept telling her she was beautiful, and then one day he returned to his villiage and no one recognized his wife because she was so beautiful....its sorta the same kinda thing.

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 159 of 210 (288847)
02-20-2006 7:11 PM


Can Jesus commit a no true Jew fallacy?
Revelation 2:9 I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Joh 8:39 They replied to him, "Our father is Abraham!" Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did."
Joh 8:44 You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and has never stood by the truth, since there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Some conditions that Jesus puts on being a Christian:
Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are really my disciples.
Mat 19:17 If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mat 7:19 Every tree not producing good fruit will be cut down and thrown into a fire. So by their fruit you will know them.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"
Mat 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the person who endures to the end will be saved.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
Mat 24:48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delays His coming, and shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the Lord of that servant ... shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Joh 14:23 "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word. Then my Father will love him, and we will go to him and make our home within him."
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments."
Mar 8:38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes with the holy angels in his Father's glory."
Mar 9:35 "If anyone wants to be first he must be last of all and servant of all."
Luk 14:26 "If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples. So those who do not carry their crosses and follow me cannot be my disciples."

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2006 7:19 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 160 of 210 (288852)
02-20-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Hangdawg13
02-20-2006 7:11 PM


Re: Can Jesus commit a no true Jew fallacy?
Can Jesus commit a no true Jew fallacy?
Yes.
Some conditions that Jesus puts on being a Christian
Christianity didn't exist when Jesus was about. Semantics aside, none of the quotes says anything like that. They are conditions on getting into heaven and loving him and avoiding hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-20-2006 7:11 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 161 of 210 (288867)
02-20-2006 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Modulous
02-20-2006 7:19 PM


Re: Can Jesus commit a no true Jew fallacy?
Thanks for your reply.
Yes.
If He's the king of the Jews, then certainly He gets to decide who his subjects are. If he says you're not a Jew, then by golly you're not a Jew.
Semantics aside, none of the quotes says anything like that. They are conditions on getting into heaven and loving him and avoiding hell.
If we're putting semantics aside, then they are all conditions on being a Christian, because that is the whole point of being a Christian: following Christ, loving Him, obeying him, being saved into heaven, etc...
Being a Christian is being a disciple is being obedient is loving Him is being a servant is being saved.
Being a Christian is not, "Oh, look at me I'm a Christian! Lets go commit genocide and accumulate wealth while there are starving kids in Africa."

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 162 of 210 (288883)
02-20-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Hangdawg13
02-20-2006 7:45 PM


Re: Can Jesus commit a no true Jew fallacy?
If He's the king of the Jews, then certainly He gets to decide who his subjects are. If he says you're not a Jew, then by golly you're not a Jew.
If he's the King of Jews
and
If the King of Jews can decide who is and who isn't a Jew
then your right.
If we're putting semantics aside, then they are all conditions on being a Christian, because that is the whole point of being a Christian: following Christ, loving Him, obeying him, being saved into heaven, etc...
Being a Christian is being a disciple is being obedient is loving Him is being a servant is being saved.
Being a Christian is not, "Oh, look at me I'm a Christian! Lets go commit genocide and accumulate wealth while there are starving kids in Africa."
That's your definition of being a Christian, but there is no objective definition of being a Christian. It might be that you believe in God and you believe that Christ was is Son the messiah, the living God and that is the Alpha and the Omega and you accept that forgiveness and judgement come only from Him. Mercy is His alone to ultimately give.
The lack of objective criteria makes the NTS and NTC problematic.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 163 of 210 (288911)
02-20-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Modulous
02-20-2006 12:25 PM


Re: christians and scots
I am saying that being a Scotsman is characterised as being something more than coming from Scotland
Well it's not. And that's the point of the NTS fallacy, and why it doesn't apply to Christians.
There is no fallacy in exposing the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2006 12:25 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 164 of 210 (288964)
02-21-2006 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by riVeRraT
02-20-2006 10:56 AM


Re: There are no Christians
If there were no people who believed, the words and teachings of Jesus would have fallen by the wayside; the Gospels would not have been written; we wouldn't even have heard the name, Jesus.
As i've heard many times on this forum, its about faith and belief; and i agree with that, for what would it be if there was no one to believe, and to be faithful.
To be honest i don't really see the workings of Hitler as a smear on Christianity. While some christians justified it, there were also those that denounced it. The same goes for racism and apartheid.
What i regard as the responsibility of Christianity, are those atrocities that were done "in the name of God", and were not denounced until it was too late; and there are many of those.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 165 of 210 (289006)
02-21-2006 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by U can call me Cookie
02-21-2006 1:36 AM


Re: There are no Christians
What i regard as the responsibility of Christianity, are those atrocities that were done "in the name of God", and were not denounced until it was too late; and there are many of those.
I think what it boils down to is the context in which the word "true" is being used.
If one is not true to their faith, are they true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by U can call me Cookie, posted 02-21-2006 1:36 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

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