Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,455 Year: 3,712/9,624 Month: 583/974 Week: 196/276 Day: 36/34 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fully 100% American vs divided allegiance
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3917 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 91 of 146 (266146)
12-06-2005 6:05 PM


Should Roman Catholics be required to register with the state department as "agents of a foreign prince" the way the official membership of foreign governments other than the Vatican must?
And vice-versa, should they have diplomatic immunity?

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 92 of 146 (266149)
12-06-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by randman
12-06-2005 10:52 AM


Re: not pro- either.
if they apply for it and then if they qualify.
do religious institutions have to apply for non-profit status or is this just another example of discriminations little backwaters.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 10:52 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 6:37 PM RAZD has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3917 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 93 of 146 (266152)
12-06-2005 6:26 PM


They do have to file, there are some "rebel" churches who refuse to though
Page not found | Southern Poverty Law Center
Most organizations crave 501(c)3 status because it exempts them from corporate income taxes and allows donors to deduct gifts from their taxable incomes.
But 501(c)3 organizations, like all organizations with employees, must make FICA (Federal Insurance Contributions Act) contributions, including Medicare and Social Security, and must withhold federal income taxes from their employees' paychecks.
To unregistered churches, obeying these laws "would be a sin under the religious convictions of the Church respecting the sovereignty of the Lordship of Jesus Christ as the head of the Church in all things."
But that's not all. They say churches should disengage from government in most every other way. They should not allow fire or building inspections or heed zoning laws. They should not permit their pastors or teachers to receive any sort of license. Newborns should not be issued birth certificates, and weddings should not involve marriage licenses.
Churches may use the federal mail system, but should not use nonprofit mailing permits or even zip codes.
IBT claimed that the people who were paid to work in the office and sweep the floors were not employees, but rather "ministers" who were paid "cash love gifts only." (Ministers, who are considered self-employed, are exempt from FICA taxes.) IBT also alleged that it was not a legal corporation or entity.
The last such corporation supposedly ended in 1989 with the dissolution of Not A Church, Incorporated, which had been established to handle IBT's legal affairs. Finally, the church argued, section 501(c)3 is unconstitutional, a violation of the First Amendment guarantee that Congress will make no law abridging the free exercise of religion.
IBT's arguments, the federal judge in IBT's tax case ruled in the end, were "sadly mistaken."

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 6:35 PM Iblis has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 94 of 146 (266158)
12-06-2005 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Iblis
12-06-2005 6:26 PM


Not sure what the big deal is.
Churches and religious organizations do not have to file for 501-C status. They are autatically exempt, but they cannot get postage discounts and some things like that, and ministers still have to file, but they can claim status as minister even if the church does not elect to file for 501-C certification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Iblis, posted 12-06-2005 6:26 PM Iblis has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 95 of 146 (266159)
12-06-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by RAZD
12-06-2005 6:20 PM


Religious groups:
Churches do not have to file for recognition to be exempt. That goes for all religions, not just Christianity. Charities do have to file to count as non-profits.
No where is the government forbidden from favoring religion. They are only restricted from favoring one religion over another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2005 6:20 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2005 7:03 PM randman has not replied
 Message 125 by bkelly, posted 12-08-2005 6:08 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 96 of 146 (266164)
12-06-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Silent H
12-06-2005 1:52 PM


Re: blue laws
There is no mention of supporting religion as long as it is nonsectarian.
Yes there is. The Constitution bans restrictions on the free exercise of religion. That is major support of religion.
Likewise, there is nothing that restricts support for religion in general. There is only a mandate that the government be non-sectarian within the context of not restricting religious expression.
Jefferson owned slaves, and did not press for the rejection of slavery, despite being an opponent of slavery and wrote that it was a goal to remove it from the US.
Which shows you should not put too much emphasis on the things he said, nor on Jefferson in general, nor any one leader except maybe George Washington who straddled the era as a giant in some respects.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Silent H, posted 12-06-2005 1:52 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Silent H, posted 12-07-2005 7:27 AM randman has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 97 of 146 (266170)
12-06-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by randman
12-06-2005 10:57 AM


still misrepresenting
You think the Constitution is secular in the sense the government is forbidden to favor religion in general
Actually I go with what Scotus says, that government is neutral, secular, and have said so. If you really paid attention to what people said you would have known that.
I mean you still think the relgious and non-profit tax law exemptions are UnConstitutional.
(1) that is not at all what I said, just another of your rather blatant misrepresentations.
(2) It's not just me, randman, that thinks that exemption from property tax, especially the part that is for the protection of the property, is not right and amounts to favoring some religions over others and over every person that is not part of a formal religion that has such property, whether they are (non-church) christian or atheist or whatever.
The government is obligated to be non-sectarian, not secular in the sense you claim.
The government is required to be neutral to religion and that makes it de facto secular in the way that the word is defined and used by most people. You are just plain wrong.
Continued repeats of false positions don't make them any more valid, and you should learn from your past mistakes.
Enjoy.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*06*2005 07:00 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 10:57 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 7:01 PM RAZD has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 98 of 146 (266177)
12-06-2005 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by RAZD
12-06-2005 6:52 PM


Re: still misrepresenting
The government is required to be neutral to religion and that makes it de facto secular in the way that the word is defined and used by most people.
Nope. The government is required to be neutral in the sense of non-sectarian, but the governments are allowed, for example, to grant churches exemptions from property taxes because there is no prohibition restricting favoring religion in general.
Sorry bud, but you are wrong. I am aware though that plenty of people want to redefine the Constitution to make secularism the de facto religion, but if that were the case presently, we would not have churches be exempt from property taxes, nor "In God We Trust", nor Congressional prayer and chaplains, etc, etc,..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2005 6:52 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 99 of 146 (266178)
12-06-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by randman
12-06-2005 6:37 PM


Re: Religious groups:
thank you for making my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 6:37 PM randman has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 100 of 146 (266187)
12-06-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Omnivorous
12-06-2005 11:39 AM


how much benefit do established church organizations get?
But if atheists set up an organization simply to enjoy the congeniality of shared belief in each other's company, and do bake-sales, paid-admission dinners, and gambling/lotteries to support their socializing, I think they'd have to pay property, sales, and income taxes, and would find little local tolerance for "gray" legal areas like bingo.
You state the position very well. Most people don't think it is a big deal because it doesn't really amount to much, but consider this:
http://www.deism.com/tax_religions.htm
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT! As you read the below article keep this fact in mind. According to the tax appraiser's office for Pinellas County, Florida the dollar amount of exempt real estate held by religions in Pinellas county alone is:
$583,581,970.00!!!
Now I doubt that most communities compare with Pinellas County, Florida. Still it gives one pause, eh? 583.5 million is not chickenfeed.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Omnivorous, posted 12-06-2005 11:39 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 146 (266194)
12-06-2005 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Silent H
12-06-2005 12:06 PM


still separation issues eh?
Intriguingly, it also shows that congressional chaplains were not as acceptable as is made out to be by some people.
Here is another quote from Madison on this topic:
James Madison, Detached Memoranda, believed to have been written circa 1817.
"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship against the members whose creeds and consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics and Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor."
Also Madison was explicitly oppossed to the payment of a christian teacher in Virginia -- quoted early in the thread on separation of church and state ( - sorry admin, I tried)
Madison's most famous statement on behalf of religious liberty was his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which he wrote to oppose a bill that would have authorized tax support for Christian ministers in the state of Virginia.
and a quote from that statement:
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
This is Madison's specific denial of randmans "non-sectarian" nonsense. It was very clearly his view that there should be complete separation with no equivocation.
Should take this to the other thread.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*06*2005 07:43 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Silent H, posted 12-06-2005 12:06 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 10:20 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 102 of 146 (266197)
12-06-2005 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by randman
12-06-2005 12:07 PM


Stumbling back to the topic of THIS thread ...
That's interesting because the biggest examples of this is the civil rights movement where ministers used the pulpit, their congregations, church buses, etc,...to lobby for change. I don't think it was bad thing even though it was injection of religion into politics.
Did they set up funding for politicians? Or did they just gather people in large visible groups that were hard to ignore?
Was this movement one that sought to {contravene\contradict} values in the constitution or one that reinforces them?
Just asking.
Personally I didn't need a minister to tell me. Or drive me.
So what do you think of Pat Robertson advocating the death or disability of Supreme Court Justices? Does this touch on treasonous thoughts?
Is his condemnation of Dover PA in direct contravention of the constitutions declared freedom of people to vote according to their consciences?
This is reported by faux news even:
Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson warned residents of a rural Pennsylvania town Thursday that disaster may strike there because they "voted God out of your city" ...
Robertson made headlines this summer when he called on his daily show for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
Would you say that this particular person could be an example of someone who will chose an {{other}} value over explicit {written in the constitution} American ones?
Now I don't want to turn this into another PR thread, so let me also ask -- are there other examples {you/people} think this could apply to?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 12:07 PM randman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 103 of 146 (266200)
12-06-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
12-04-2005 1:05 AM


International Corporations
Say RAZD, while we are on the question of divided allegiance, do you have any comments on Americans why are execs of international corporations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 1:05 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2005 9:36 PM nwr has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 104 of 146 (266222)
12-06-2005 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by nwr
12-06-2005 8:12 PM


Re: International Corporations
I think International Corporations are one of the biggest evils in some time because their only allegiance is to greed. They exist to get away from government controls, which means that they exist to get away from the control of people operating in the interest of people.
Personal opinion, and if anyone can disabuse me of the idea I'd be happy to entertain the concept.
I also think that anyone that wants to support their own personal economy (their salary vs expenditures) is well advised to invest in local business, the smaller the better, as only then does the money so spent stay in the community. And stay far away from wallmart ... unless you want to end up as a greeter there.
Does an american CEO of a corporation that establishes a head office on some carribean island for the sole purpose of avoiding certain american laws have divided {loyalties\allegiencies}? yep.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by nwr, posted 12-06-2005 8:12 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by nwr, posted 12-06-2005 9:51 PM RAZD has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 105 of 146 (266227)
12-06-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by RAZD
12-06-2005 9:36 PM


Re: International Corporations
I agree with you, RAZD. And I consider it a very serious problem, especially considering the amount of influence these CEOs have in both major political parties.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2005 9:36 PM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 10:22 PM nwr has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024