Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Where is the Good Non American Music???
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 136 of 172 (382613)
02-05-2007 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by nator
02-04-2007 11:21 PM


Re: just wondering
Why would Eliott Smith cover Beatles songs so many times if he didn't think their stuff was trivial and meaningless?

Because it wasn't trivial and meaningless, it was good.

The Beatles were just not artists as Smith and Johnston were.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by nator, posted 02-04-2007 11:21 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by kongstad, posted 02-07-2007 11:00 AM joshua221 has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 137 of 172 (382614)
02-05-2007 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by nator
02-04-2007 11:35 PM


Re: just wondering
Do you really think that drug abusers and mentally ill people "understand life" better than everyone else?

No but there seems to be a connection between those qualities and those who do "understand life" better than everyone else.

Have you read that poem yet? http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1773&m=1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by nator, posted 02-04-2007 11:35 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-05-2007 2:49 PM joshua221 has responded
 Message 139 by nator, posted 02-05-2007 8:50 PM joshua221 has responded
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2007 12:43 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 172 (382625)
02-05-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by joshua221
02-05-2007 1:48 PM


Re: just wondering
No but there seems to be a connection between those qualities and those who do "understand life" better than everyone else.

If you feel like getting around to it, I'd still be interested to hear what about life, specifically, was not understood by William Shakespeare or John Lennon.

I'm reasonably sure you'd rather say, "they weren't true artists" another 15,000 times, but hope springs eternal.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by joshua221, posted 02-05-2007 1:48 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by joshua221, posted 02-07-2007 2:21 PM Dan Carroll has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 139 of 172 (382718)
02-05-2007 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by joshua221
02-05-2007 1:48 PM


Re: just wondering
Do you really think that drug abusers and mentally ill people "understand life" better than everyone else?

quote:
No but there seems to be a connection between those qualities and those who do "understand life" better than everyone else.

So, in other words, you are saying, "No, except I mean yes."

Wow, you are completely over your head in this thread, aren't you?

quote:
Have you read that poem yet?

Yes.

It's nothing new.

Do you have any idea how many versions of "I'm an artist, nobody understands me, I'm so deep and pained" exist in this world?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by joshua221, posted 02-05-2007 1:48 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by joshua221, posted 02-07-2007 2:27 PM nator has not yet responded

    
kongstad
Member (Idle past 1129 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 140 of 172 (383178)
02-07-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by joshua221
02-05-2007 1:46 PM


Re: just wondering
prophex writes:

Because it wasn't trivial and meaningless, it was good.
The Beatles were just not artists as Smith and Johnston were.

So you agree that the Beatles made great art, but you deny that they were artists?

I think you are confused about the difference between the object of art, and the creator of art.

If the Beatles made great art, then by definition they are great artists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by joshua221, posted 02-05-2007 1:46 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Jaderis, posted 02-07-2007 11:47 AM kongstad has not yet responded
 Message 150 by joshua221, posted 02-07-2007 2:28 PM kongstad has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 773 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 141 of 172 (383181)
02-07-2007 11:10 AM


shakespeare
off topic, yeah, but prophex has made the comment that the beatles and shakespeare were just average joes.

i'm just wondering if he's familiar with this famous soliloquoy:

HAMLET: To be, or not to be--that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep--
No more--and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep--
To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprise of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. -- Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia! -- Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.

not a great artist, eh?


Replies to this message:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1685 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 142 of 172 (383184)
02-07-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by kongstad
02-07-2007 11:00 AM


Re: just wondering
So you agree that the Beatles made great art, but you deny that they were artists?

I think you are confused about the difference between the object of art, and the creator of art.

If the Beatles made great art, then by definition they are great artists.

No, he implied that they were not the same kind of artists as Smith and Johnston were...you know lonely, tortured souls who put out mediocre music.

You do make a great point, tho.

What do you think of kongstad's reply, O Great Master of All Things Art?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by kongstad, posted 02-07-2007 11:00 AM kongstad has not yet responded

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 143 of 172 (383191)
02-07-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by joshua221
02-05-2007 1:48 PM


Re: just wondering
Bob Marley
Radiohead
Stone Roses
New Order
Rolling Stones
Prodigy

Other than Hendrix and Nirvana I can think of very little American bands that I have much time for to be honest

But that just proves that generally people like what they grow up with and once tatses are established it is very difficult to get people to broaden them. I make no bones about that applying to me and it seems that it certainly applies to you too.

Maybe we should both make more effort.......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by joshua221, posted 02-05-2007 1:48 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 144 of 172 (383197)
02-07-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
01-26-2007 11:14 PM


I think part of your problem is that hind sight is 20-20.
Your listening to all this stuff, after the fact. When it first came out, it was cutting edge. All other stuff that you listen too is based on those famous bands, such as the BEatles, Eric Clapton, etc.

Most of the good bands of today get their inspiration from those bands that you call unoriginal.

Nobody does roack and roll, and the blues like America, and Europe, so your not really going to find good bands outside those two conutries. And if you did, it would probably be in another language, and that would make it unenjoyable to those who don't understand the language.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 01-26-2007 11:14 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by kuresu, posted 02-07-2007 2:20 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 147 by joshua221, posted 02-07-2007 2:23 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 773 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 145 of 172 (383227)
02-07-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by riVeRraT
02-07-2007 1:00 PM


America, and Europe, so your not really going to find good bands outside those two conutries

France, Germany, Mexico, Canada, Italy, Poland, Brazil, Chile, and a whole host of other countries are going to be pissed about this statement. The USA and the UK/Ireland are not the only countries in America and Europe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by riVeRraT, posted 02-07-2007 1:00 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by riVeRraT, posted 02-07-2007 4:41 PM kuresu has responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 146 of 172 (383228)
02-07-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Dan Carroll
02-05-2007 2:49 PM


Re: just wondering
If you feel like getting around to it, I'd still be interested to hear what about life, specifically, was not understood by William Shakespeare or John Lennon.

All I am saying is that from what I have read and heard of Lennon and Shakespeare put up next to Smith and Johnston it doesn't hold up.

The lyrics to Imagine are horrible. Lyrics written by a man who would rather not think.

The words in Shakespeare's plays are cool and good sure, but there is nothing that you can take out of Shakespeare and show me that would amaze me, inspire me, or make me feel that Shakespeare was not some average joe who learned to write the english language down on paper.

You see there are 2 different kinds of people at this level, those who know and those who don't.

The ones who don't are greatly appreciated by those millions of others who don't and the ones that do but are misunderstood by the masses like here in this microcosm at evc.

I'm not saying that these men are saviors, I'm saying that they are brilliant - and that The Beatles and Shakespeare while being good at what they do were not brilliant. Their work is work and that is all it is, a purpose, a career...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-05-2007 2:49 PM Dan Carroll has responded

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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 147 of 172 (383230)
02-07-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by riVeRraT
02-07-2007 1:00 PM


Nobody does roack and roll, and the blues like America, and Europe,

I don't think there is any good rock and blues in Europe.

All you got is the Beatles. haha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by riVeRraT, posted 02-07-2007 1:00 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 148 of 172 (383232)
02-07-2007 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by kuresu
02-07-2007 11:10 AM


Re: shakespeare
hhaahha

thanks for posting that, it strengthened my argument hahaaahaa


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by kuresu, posted 02-07-2007 11:10 AM kuresu has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 149 of 172 (383234)
02-07-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by nator
02-05-2007 8:50 PM


Re: just wondering
Do you have any idea how many versions of "I'm an artist, nobody understands me, I'm so deep and pained" exist in this world?

I think you're joking - if you aren't let's just pretend that you were for your own sake. haha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by nator, posted 02-05-2007 8:50 PM nator has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 150 of 172 (383235)
02-07-2007 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by kongstad
02-07-2007 11:00 AM


Re: just wondering
I don't think they made art.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by kongstad, posted 02-07-2007 11:00 AM kongstad has not yet responded

  
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